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teguh123 02-12-2009 08:37 AM

Price/kwh of energy
 
1. What's the price per kwh of, gasoline, hydrogen, LPG, and compressed natural gas? Where can I find that?

2. Is running a car on compressed air as a fuel a good idea? What do you guys know?

captainslug 02-12-2009 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teguh123 (Post 87464)
1. What's the price per kwh of, gasoline, hydrogen, LPG, and compressed natural gas? Where can I find that?

2. Is running a car on compressed air as a fuel a good idea? What do you guys know?

1. I don't think anyone has a table like that up anywhere. You would have to fin a common measurement and if you're trying to compare applied energy you would have to adjust for efficiency.

1 kWh = 3412 BTU
1 gal (US) gasoline = 114,500 BTU (equivalent to 33.55 kWh)

2. It's very very inefficient as an energy source and the amount of energy per unit of volume is not competitive.

wyatt 02-12-2009 02:14 PM

of course you can make your car into a steam engine... light a fire under a boiler and use the expanding steam drive your car. Advantages include: great low end torque, able to be done renewably. Disadvantages... you can never never let your boiler run out of water!!!!

1. depends on the price of gasoline, hydrogen, LPG and compressed natural gas. You can find lists of how many kWh are in a gallon of each, maybe not all in one place but should be easy enough.
2. It can be done, butI am with captainslug, probably not the best option. You would need a large tank of super high pressure air if you wanted any range...

rmay635703 02-12-2009 03:53 PM

1.

Actually I find the current price table of electricity price per KWhr shocking

Electric Power Monthly - Average Retail Price of Electricity to Ultimate Customers by End-Use Sector, by State

I too don't think there ever was a decent nationwide price per gallon list of any fuel as usually I can find that my local gas (where I go anyway) is priced dramatically different than a station just down the road and dramatically different than what the gas bloggers say it should be.

As stated above, Obviously you would need to convert the price per gallon into an equivalent unit, you would then also have to understand that gasoline is generally used at between 14%-30% effiency for locamotion as compared to 70-90% for electric and you would need to understand the inefficiency that gets added onto the process of making hydrogen. Thats the trouble with comparing Apples to Pine cones there are a lot of variables.

2.

Compressed Air has promise and is being used in europe hooked into cave networks utilitizing temperature differences, not what you were expecting right?

In terms of a vehicle, compressed air also holds promise but the type of technology needed to improve its effiency and energy density just isn't in the hands of the masses. Generally the solutions using the heat and cold generated are the most effient, we will have to wait for the frenchies or India to figure it out for us in the meantime.

teguh123 02-15-2009 06:48 AM

Wow. In Indonesia, electricity is 5 cents per kwh. I wonder why it's so expensive in United states? 18 cents per kwh?

Okay I got it.

To make things compare apple to apple we need to take into account efficiency.

How many litters of gasoline does it take to run 1 km? 9L (said my wife)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 87518)
1.

Actually I find the current price table of electricity price per KWhr shocking

Electric Power Monthly - Average Retail Price of Electricity to Ultimate Customers by End-Use Sector, by State

I too don't think there ever was a decent nationwide price per gallon list of any fuel as usually I can find that my local gas (where I go anyway) is priced dramatically different than a station just down the road and dramatically different than what the gas bloggers say it should be.

As stated above, Obviously you would need to convert the price per gallon into an equivalent unit, you would then also have to understand that gasoline is generally used at between 14%-30% effiency for locamotion as compared to 70-90% for electric and you would need to understand the inefficiency that gets added onto the process of making hydrogen. Thats the trouble with comparing Apples to Pine cones there are a lot of variables.

2.

Compressed Air has promise and is being used in europe hooked into cave networks utilitizing temperature differences, not what you were expecting right?

In terms of a vehicle, compressed air also holds promise but the type of technology needed to improve its effiency and energy density just isn't in the hands of the masses. Generally the solutions using the heat and cold generated are the most effient, we will have to wait for the frenchies or India to figure it out for us in the meantime.


rmay635703 02-15-2009 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teguh123 (Post 87883)
Wow. In Indonesia, electricity is 5 cents per kwh. I wonder why it's so expensive in United states? 18 cents per kwh?

I would guess the same reason they sell prescription drugs for 10 to 50 times more than they can be had for in foreign countries.

Because they can and no one does anything about it. :(

I really wish our political system could be changed in this country along with the obsolete parties.

NeilBlanchard 02-15-2009 01:20 PM

Hi,

Compressed air is a storage medium; not a fuel.

A method that has been proposed for using compressed air, is in conjunction with a large solar array in the southwest USA (or a large number of wind turbines) is after it is transmitted to population centers, if it is not needed just then -- use the excess electricity to run large air compressors. Use these to pump air pressure into existing large underground caverns (where there used to be natural gas, for instance) -- and then when electricity is needed beyond what is coming from the renewable arrays; then reverse the process. The stored air pressure can be used to run turbines to generate electricity on demand.

TestDrive 02-15-2009 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 87924)
I really wish our political system could be changed in this country along with the obsolete parties.

Let's vote. Which do you prefer, arsenic or cyanide?

teguh123 02-15-2009 01:34 PM

Subsidy
 
It is possible that electricity are subsidized in Indonesia. However, as far as I know, the cost of production is even much lower.

teguh123 02-15-2009 01:36 PM

Well, the pharmaceutical companies need to recoup their research cost.

Drugs are like software. The difference is while software are protected by copyright, drugs are protected by patent. But once the patent is gone, there is absolutely no use to buy branded product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmay635703 (Post 87924)
I would guess the same reason they sell prescription drugs for 10 to 50 times more than they can be had for in foreign countries.

Because they can and no one does anything about it. :(

I really wish our political system could be changed in this country along with the obsolete parties.



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