Prius haters + Hybrids & [Bio?] Diesels
 

I used to be a Prius hater. It was because of the Pious owner's notion that they were saving the world by driving one, when in reality they still burn gas and they still pollute.

My tune changed when I realized that in its most basic sense, a Prius is simply an economical, practical car. EPA is 50 combined. EPA for my Matrix (the same size of car, more or less, with auto trans) is 27. If that's not enough reason for me to want one, I don't know what is.

I used to want a diesel. I am a diesel mechanic, so why wouldn't I? But I have changed my tune because working around the latest and greatest "clean" diesels has proven that even they stink like hell and are disgusting.

And then there is the biodiesel angle. It may offset carbon somewhat (if that even matters or not) but biodiesel doesn't make smoke that is any less stinky or gross. So I hesitate to fall into that bandwagon - making a bit less net carbon but still producing high NOx and particulates and whatever else.

I invite the educated to chime in, as I am only going by what my nose is telling me.

I dislike smug Prius people. In Ohio, 80% of the Prius owners beat the crap out of them, and one person I know gets about 40 mpg in theirs.

I think the Prius is great, it seems like a great car. From my limited experience, I don't knkw of anything bad with them. Maybe replacing the battery at some point?

I would sooner go Insight, then CRZ, then Mirage, then the Olio three wheeler, then a Prius lol. But they seem like good cars.

I know you invited edumacated folk, but, i'm gonna put my 2 cents in anyhoo.

The prius is an awesome car if you do predominantly urban driving. I think it is particularly good if you mix in some hills. I was in SF last summer and noticed that pretty much all the cabs are Prii. This makes sense as they can recoup some of the potential energy while going down those hills.

If most of your driving is secondary or hiway, I think a TDI is the way to go. It is a nicer hiway cruiser where all that hybrid stuff is just dead weight.

I dislike diesel quite a lot; it's very expensive to repair a diesel engine if they do break, they smell bad, they are noisy (even in modern cars with very good sound damping) and in the case of Semi trucks (in my state at least) are completely unregulated and are allowed to belch clouds of black smoke. Meanwhile I pay $200 every 2 years to have my little tiny 1.5 liter tested by the DEQ. Admittedly it makes me a little jealous.

Some of the reason I dislike diesel is because of that jealousy, but much of it just boils down to simply disliking their pollution. Diesels are not clean engines, no matter what some on this forum would have you believe.

EDIT: I forgot to post the second part!

As for the Prius, I appreciate the engineering that went into it and think they're pretty amazing, but I very much dislike the pollution the battery packs produce when manufactured, distributed, and recycled, as much of that process takes place (often) in China, where they are free from environmental oversight. Same reason I don't own an iPhone even though it's the trendy thing to do.

I have nothing against hybrids, but have no interest in the current Prius. As far as I'm concerned it's just another bloated sedan with no manual option (dealbreaker for me) and a price tag that far outweighs any gas savings. I like diesels, but I feel similar about the TDI's available in the US. It's hard to swallow an extra $5K over the gas models for only 40 mpg.

What about the fact that diesel is now .50 or so more a gallon and how much is the urea fluid that some now require? More cents per gallon. I thought I wanted a TDI but alas there are better options in my mind.

I agree concerning TDIs. I just don't get 5K difference. I can't imagine a turbo costs more than a grand when mass produced. The internals are a little stouter, but, they are more or less the same, not much difference in cost. The injection system is also a little more heavy duty. I wonder how much is in the emissions system?

Get the new diesel and hack all the emmissions BS out of it, reprogram the computer for economy and make the new technology run more like an old diesel engine. But over all it would run a lot cleaner with the prefectly timed high pressure common rail injection compared to old mechanical injection.

My only gripe about hybrids is those who say the battery pollutes the envronment. As Ive seen on the insight forum people recycle battery sticks for other cars and ev projects. Ive takened a few dead sticks to the battery recycle box at the local hardware store.

As for mining, hybrids arent the only things on earth that use batteries. I bet your cell phone has caused more pollution than any hybrids and if that one section of earth is dedicated for raw materials for batteries, does it matter whats its used for? Its not like a clean area was chosen for prius battery production, but rather an existing deposit is used for that vs x,y,z.

I think the "new" diesel is the latest scam on the public next to clean coal. The vehicles cost more to buy, more to operate, more to maintain and only give slightly better mpg. I think the direct injected dual turbo gassers are about on par with a diesel in all regards.

Oh, I hear you. It is EASILY done and at least in the 2007-2009 products, it makes them run much nicer - but much much dirtier. I do not agree with removing modern aftertreatment systems, even though economics often dictates otherwise. I believe they are a necessity and once the growing pains are mostly over, nobody will notice them anymore. I would say that 50% of my job is dealing with aftertreatment issues, but I can see that they are slowly improving.

To throw a wrench in the discussion, I found a biodiesel vs diesel emissions chart. It kind of goes against what I thought about biodiesel:
http://www.biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-ba...fact-sheet.pdf
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5293044c.png

If you are worried about pollution water injection can be used to greatly reduce NOx levels and PM emmissions all while giving better fuel economy and more power.
Edit: for up north you may want to retain the EGR for use in cooler months to aid with warm up.

IF I am worried about pollution? I would be very ignorant if I wasn't. Shame on anyone who isn't!

EGR isn't good in cold climates. Lots of shellacking, plugging up, etc., unless you use an elevated idle speed - 1000 RPM+. And though I am "up north", it's very mild here all winter long anyway - usually slightly above freezing all winter long.

Do you have good solid empirical data on water injection vs. emissions vs. g/hp-hr? I know the hot rodded diesel pickup guys use it to prevent unwanted large bangs when pushing hard.

Id hope the environment is considered in everyones quest for mpg. :thumbup: Granted I plan on a new exhaust for my kick, I also plan on adding a high flow cat in place of the oem one. Gasoline engines I thinkwould be easy to add a cat to clean it up, not sure about the diesels. I hear the system collects the soot, then burn it off every so often in a regen cycle. I doubt something like that could be fitted to a diesel lawn mower engine.

Same here. It's one reason I drive an Insight, the other being that I want only two seats.

The other thing that I dislike about the Prius is the other little design stupidities, like that center-mounted display screen, the ignition switch that doesn't actually turn off the engine...

There are passive DPFs out there that do not require active regeneration. They do not work in light load applications because there is not enough engine heat to oxidize the collected soot in the DPF. Soot oxidation requires 600F minimum. If you installed a DPF on your diesel lawn mower and kept the engine loaded enough to maintain 600F+ EGT, it would probably work.

A modern, active DPF actually has two parts: the catalyst and the DPF. When soot buildup needs to be burned off, the engine supplies raw diesel fuel, either sprayed into the exhaust post-turbocharger (separate injector or "doser") or sprayed in cylinder via fuel injectors during the exhaust stroke. This fuel is carried by the hot exhaust into the catalyst where it hits the platinum and oxidizes, making LOTS of heat in order to oxidize the soot collected in the DPF. Normal active regeneration temps are regulated at ~1000-1200F, where soot is rapidly oxidized - about 20 minutes at this temperature clears out most of the collected soot.

That comparison was done with all pre-1997 engines. It's really unfair to try to say that the fuel itself makes emissions go up or down by a certain percentage--especially with all the new electronic controls and aftertreatment--it's tough to know how the controls respond. In my experience, most of the "modern" (EGR, common rail, etc.) diesels have larger NOx increases and larger PM decreases than the older diesels.

It all depends on how you run the engine and how the controls work. When I was in grad school I made a controls algorithm that sensed biodiesel via an O2 sensor and then modified the control strategy to keep engine-out NOx, PM, & efficiency as good or better than conventional diesel (with a 2007 Cummins 6.7L):

http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/dai...11/#clip405284

I was assuming the use of a pre-DPF engine. I don't think I would risk running bio-D in a common rail engine - the tolerances are too tight and the room for error is too great. Consider that the secondary filters are now, what, 5 microns? 3? I forget. A set of injectors and a HP pump head would cost you about $4500 + labor.:eek:
Believe me, I have changed a few!

I am not a hater. At least not on a engineering product that consist in the hard work of a lot of people. On the other side hate is a gate to the bad side of "The Force" :). On the other hand I become suspicions and allergic to the imbecilities of the politicians and corporations. An "eco" car is a not build one. Prolonging the life of an existing car, even if in terms of emission is not so evaluated, is far more beneficial for the planet than scraping it and buy another one. Oups! that is no so good for business... If the motivation for politicians would have been the health of the planet, they would go in the direction of developing KIT system for current cars on accessible prices and encourage of conservation of the current running cars, dropping the craziness of production of new cars. But is obviously not the case, so all taxation and regulations for me are just pretext for making more money to tax the nontaxable. And they are successful because we are doing a lousy job questioning and controlling our representatives. That is a different story. I like the "principle of the condenser" to sore the extra energy and to release it when needed. Everything else, in my opinion, is excessive and not economical.

I think the big issue is that accuratly defining terms like "clean", "green", and "eco-friendly" is not an easy task--even by people who are trying to be honest, fair, and objective.

This is particularly true since most to these definitions involve comparing something that does exist to some alternative that is assumed would have existed in it's place.

As an owner of an older VW TDI, I am obviously biased so it is no surprise that I prefer the diesels. I like that I can go from pure dino-diesel to pure bio-diesel (or anywhere in between) with little to no penalty in FE. I like that it is a manual transmission, which my wife (thankfully) also prefers. I like that I have a lifetime average FE of over 50mpg with both my wife and I driving, despite the fact that she is not nearly as good at hypermiling as I am. And I like that locally we have an amazing TDI support group, so getting things fixed or upgraded is not nearly as expensive as going to the dealer or even an independent shop.

The smell and noise is a bit subjective, and I have to admit I like both. It's probably because I grew up around them. The sound of a diesel at cruise or the sound of the turbo spooling up or down is music to my ears. Weird, I know.

I do like the concept of the Prius, but I wouldn't want one. If I lived, worked, and shopped within a city and rarely made it onto a freeway, I might feel differently. But I am glad they exist and that they are getting significantly better FE than the vast majority of new vehicles. And I'm glad that they are helping drive a 'hybrid revolution', which helps bump the overall FE of all new cars with that technology. Short of not building new cars (as calfianu suggested), hybrids seem to be a reasonable stepping stone for the 100mpg(e)+ cars.

The tolerances in the CR diesels are irrelevant, if the filters keep debris out of the fuel system, you are fine. Biodiesel is a liquid with smaller molecules than a set of diesel hydrocarbons.

I've been burning B100 and blends in my Jeep CRD for 80k miles with no fuel related issues so far, aside from a gelling incident in below zero conditions. Not to say nothing will eventually degrade as a result, but there are lots of dead ones run on straight petro-diesel.

I hate the smell of diesel smoke too, but I have grown quite tolerant of the smell of biodiesel, much less acrid, and less visible too.

The Science Of Diesel Emissions Reduction - Diesel Power Magazine

Reduction of Diesel Engine Emissions by Water Injection

Experimental Study of Inlet Manifold Water Injection on a Common Rail HSDI Automobile Diesel Engine, Compared to EGR with Respect to PM and Nox Emissions and Specific Consumption

You don't need to treat NOx if you never create it.

Its amazing the things we could do nearly for free 40+ years ago are being verified eh?

The above is why diesels were always used in mines for decades; water injection/water wash = pollution free (no co, no nox and no soot)

Jesus, why didn't anyone ever tell me this stuff?! Thanks for the links, those are awesome!

The Phoenix area is extremely flat, but there are countless Prius taxis. Now, the one specific reason that I want a Prius is for the hills and canyons between here and my parents' house, but I would appreciate improved mileage everywhere.

I absolutely do not think that hybrids are the solution to any of our problems. Someone linked a video for "Cool Earth" and the guy said that if everyone started driving a Prius, pollution would decrease by 0.5%.

Now, my Subaru gets half of the mileage, but it was produced well over a decade ago, and I have to wonder how long I would need to drive a Prius before the pollution balanced out, not to mention the cost.

I read that the traction battery has come down in price a couple of times. The technology will continue to improve, and as there are more electric cars, that technology will also improve, as well as become more affordable.

That is the first that I have heard of the ignition not turning off when you tell it to. My nerd rage would kick in.

I knew a girl that had one of the first Echos and she gave us a ride, telling us how much she loved it. I was sorely disappointed and could not understand why her instrument cluster was in the middle. She said that she liked that, too, but when I continued asking questions, she admitted that she tended to speed because she forgot to check.

My last girlfriend had a Yaris and she said that she bought it because she was only five feet tall and could not normally see the speedometer.

Ever read the speedometer of the Mini in front of you?

The Prius was among the final vehicles I considered purchasing when I started looking in 2008. While I've only had 1 test drive, I still admire the technology that is employed by the Prius. However, I also favor diesel vehicles over gasoline due to the 30% greater work done per volume of fuel.

Diesel engines are more efficient, more reliable, more easily turbo-charged, and more easily fueled (diversity of fuel). I am among the few that enjoy the sound and smell of a diesel engine. Sometimes I turn the radio off just to hear the music of the turbo spool.

That said, I don't see the point of comparing a specific hybrid (Prius) to all diesel vehicles. It's like comparing a hand grenade to a cruise missile.

I don't consider the environment at all in my quest for MPG. Economics and an interest in efficiency are my only concern. That's not to say that environmentalism is not important to me. Quite the opposite; but I realize the counter-intuitive reality that efficiency and conservation are often not correlated. The economics of energy consumption is such that reducing consumption (demand) also reduces prices, which in turn increases consumption.

The earth doesn't care if someone conserves a gallon of petrol, and it certainly isn't a reason to feel morally superior to anyone else.

This reminds me of an interesting article I just read that challenges the definition of nature, of good environment, and who manages the environment.

Well I don't know if I qualify as educated, but I will tell you my opinion. I have a 2001 Prius, I think they are a neat idea. Yes, a lot of people probably think that if they want to make a difference then that's all they have to do - buy one. I have had diesels as well. With the intent of going biodiesel. Mainly because I liked the idea of not having to rely on a gas station for my fuel supply. But the reality is, man I don't have the time to scrounge up WVO etc, and at the end of the day if I am not fully committed to sourcing that fuel, filtering it, etc, then for my application it's useless. Sure there are lots of Prius posers out there, but I would rather them be Prius posers than Escalade posers. I drink PBR. Hipsters drink PBR. I hate hipsters, but that won't stop me from liking PBR. I think the same rule applies to the Prius. If it is an easy way for people to drive something easy on fuel and the environment, then I can deal with ignoring some of the smug clods that drive them. They do what they were designed to do, who cares who is behind the wheel? :snail:

Wow...thanks for those links. It really pisses me off that manufacturers [because of mandates by the EPA?] don't go this route. But I guess filling the water injection tank with H2O (or a H2O/CH3OH solution) does little to fuel a separate DEF economy that the EPA (or friends of those in those within) no doubt reap the benefits of.

Re: the center gauge cluster...I finally found out it's so it doesn't have to be changed for left hand vs. right hand drive markets.

I don't like it, though. My brother had one of the first Yarises, and it's just too odd (as well as unbelievably slow with the automatic).

I'd agree wiith this,

My old AAZ engine is happy on 30% veg oil, straight in the tank. Its an ld in-direct injection motor though.

I wouldnt try it on a TDI without converting to Bio-Diesel.

Re the hybrid/Diesel discussion,

My daily commute is approx 64 miles, and about 80% Motorway or Fast A road.. A hybrid is not really suited to this (in terms of best use of the electic motor) whereas a Diesel comes into its own lopping along at 2400rpm at 55mph.

If I were to do more town work, then either a Hybrid or a pure electric would work well.

I'm hoping the Veg oil reduces my emissions too- mind you, the cat should sort that out after a fashion

I thought of that, although it did not look symmetrical. However, it would be far easier to just have right- and left-eye dashboards than everything.

How much did that reduce the price? :D

I believe that I rented a car like that once. I had the GPS where the speedometer should have been and never looked at the real one.

Hi,

I'm pretty sure that most Prius drivers simply want to have the best mileage car they can buy. Is it possible that the idea that Prius owners are largely holier-than-thou is only in the mind of the beholder? Maybe brought on by a guilty conscience, or maybe a little envy? Sure, some Prius drivers may think they don't need to do anything else, but they have done something about reducing the amount of gas they burn through - which is what we all are trying to do, here on EM.

I'm going to go back and read this thread, but I wanted to respond to your post. I think you have already come to a similar conclusion:

Yes, it is the most economical car with an engine that you can buy, at the moment.

Edit: the VW XL1 seems like it is a huge leap forward for diesel electric hybrids. And biodiesel if it becomes more widely available would be a very good thing. As I understand it, biodiesel largely eliminates the soot and the sulfur. We need to do more with jatropha, which has a very oily fruit, is drought resistant and grows on marginal land - and it makes excellent diesel.

The highest mileage diesel I know of (before the XL1) is the Smart ForTwo - 700cc 3 cylinder that gets an honest 70MPG+. If the XL1 drivetrain gets used in the VW Up!, it should easily beat that, and might even get ~100-120MPG+.

There is a lot more where that came from. That is just a small sample of our water injection wiki (I put nearly all the info on there).

http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/Water_injection

I have always been intrigued with the hybrid cars.

I don't pay more than a couple thousand for a car. With their complexity I don't think I will find one in my budget.

That is why they don't allow water injection.
Its simple, cheap, reduces fuel consumption, increases power and no body makes any money off it beyond install and the occasional broken part.

The biggest problem with water injection I see is winter, freezing the water and during cold start.
Grill shutters, intercooler bypass and EGR could get the engine up to temp pretty quick.

Modern materials can handle freeze/expansion cycles of water, the trouble would be the time it takes for the water to heat, since you wouldn't have pollution control during that time or be in limp mode.

It sounds like another reason to use block heaters.

Gee, thanks...:eek:

Varn, wish I could be like you. Ive had a few used vehicles, 2 of which I picked out after careful testing and going over. All ended up costing me 2-400 a month in repairs. At that rate it seemed cheaper to just give the money to a bank every month to be able to pump gas and drive.

I was in an accident that wasnt my faiult and feel both the guy who hit me and my insurance hosed me. Ive decided my next car will be used, paid in full and uninsured. :eek:

oil pan 4, most businesses that are public have to think of the 3 legged stool. The customer, the share holder and the employee. You got to make decisions based on all 3. Now what one who sells the water injection kit could do is offer support for more eco modding in trade for buying their kit over anotehr guys since parts or service wont be much.

You can antifreeze your water for water injection.
Likely addtives are methanol, propylene glycol, maybe glycerol and urea.

To prevent freezing of pumps and metal nozzles along with preventing engine flooding I would recomend a system blow down, where a minute or 2 before shut down all the water injection nozzle solenoids plus a dump valve solenoid opens and all the water gets blown out of the system by compressed air or boost from the turbo.
I would use compressed air that way I could hit the switch moments before shutting the engine off and be assured that water was kept well away from the expensive bits.

Hi Cobb. What I have found was that it usually takes about a 1000 dollars to get a used car up and running well. New tires, battery are normal. I may spend about a 1000 the first 6 months then it settles down.

Never believe what the current owner tells you. You have to put up with the lack of maintenance and mistakes of others that went before you. Many times the previous owner will maintain their vehicle but then for the last 6 months to a year they quit.

I won't put my old stuff up against the new except that I don't have a computer and my car will continue to run in the event of an EMP.

A comment on water injection. Here in the midwest we have a lot of minerals in the water and winter weather.

I would be afraid to run tap water. Not positive it that is a real concern, perhaps oil pan can include his thoughts. I know my faucets become unusable in 3-4 years. Would hate to see it develop on the piston crowns or valve gear.