Project "Save the Flea!" Winter beater: 2007 Civic 1.8L, 5-speed
 

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1404784449

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1404784485
(Actual recent pics of the soon to be hermetically sealed specimen.)

After temporarily de-modifying and spending more than a day cleaning up the Firefly (first proper clean-up in about 3 years), I've decided its low miles, advancing years and decent condition have earned it some pampering.

Translation: I am going to stop subjecting it to the salt-soaking automotive rust party that constitutes eastern Ontario wintertimes.

(It has hardly any rust on it at the moment owing to the fact it has only been winter driven about 5/17 years. Also, it's had 3 anti-rust treatments/sprays.)

I'm under no illusion that this car will ever be a collectible. That's not the motivation. But with just 34,000 km on the clock, why ruin it?

So... the hunt is on for a winter beater!


Ideal Candidate: Twinsies!

I think another non-terminally rusted 96-00 Metro-zoid would be perfect, as I could swap ecomods between cars.

Also, I have lots of spare parts! Winter tires on wheels, 3.52 final drive transmissions and the like.

Also, also... I could be more aggressive with the beater's various panels for attaching mods, and then swap them over to the trailer-queen Flea for the other 2/3 of the year. Like the hatchback, with welded-on boat tail mounting mounts, or hacking the bumper covers to make them more aero.

I saw a sweet, sweet $850 Metro last week which I would have bought in a heartbeat if it hadn't been so far away.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1403919436

I've also been trying for a couple of weeks to get a response on another reasonably priced super-low-miles doppelganger about 2 hours away, but the owner is frustratingly not responding to messages.

War_Wagon even offered up a free "ran when parked!" rust-free '96 Metro from his extensive eco car collection on the west coast! And I seriously (although briefly) considered an epic cross-country road trip to fetch it. mechman600 even sweetened the offer with a reminder he owes me a case of tasty home-brewed beer, but sanity (yawn, boring sanity) prevailed.


More Likely Candidate:

Almost anything cheap, somewhat efficient, with a manual transmission and a 4-cylinder engine.

Define cheap, you say? Around $1500 on the road would be considered cheap here in Ontario where used cars have to pass emissions testing plus a mechanical/safety inspection before you get your plates.

I envy those of you who live in lawless paradises where rusted out, smoking, $450 beaters can be bought and driven, exempt from such troublesome gubmint meddling!

Over $1500 if...

I'm not averse to spending double that amount or more that if I thought I could re-sell next year and break even and/or make a couple of bucks. But I don't really want to get into the fixing-up-and-flipping-cars business. I've got enough projects!


The Candidates So Far ...

To give you an idea what I've been looking at... all 5MT, and prices are "asking prices", nobody's offering mechanically inspected "certified" cars, though some have current valid e-tests:

• 1998 Neon, 150k kms / 93k mi., $1500 - clean daily driver with good winter tires; female owner decided she needed an AWD car; a few dents & small rust spots. (Sold before I contacted her).

• 2002 Honda Civic LX sedan, 200k kms / 120k mi., $1500 - another clean daily driver, set of winter & summer tires; female owner says she's tired of driving manual; cracked windshield, busted A/C, a bit of Honda rust. She says the price is firm; I told her get back to me if she changes her mind on that.

• 2002 Mazda Protege 5, 230k kms / 142k mi., $1200 - rough around the edges (really dirty inside and rustier than the previous two); includes set of winter tires; needs complete brake job, says seller

The 50 km / 30 Mile Beater Rule ...

I'm also not going to drive all over hell's half acre looking at rusted out cars, so I'm limiting myself to somewhat local vehicles. Exceptions may be made for, well, exceptional specimens.

I almost considered going beyond that distance for a...

• 2001 Pontiac Sunfire, 160k kms / 100k mi, $500 - rusty & banged up exterior, one-female-owner car with new clutch, working A/C and "runs well".

But it's not currently on the road (no plates), so no go (getting it home would be a bigger problem).


The Hunt Continues

Car shopping online is fun. I'll update when I have more news.

Have you considered any older (95-02) subarus? For example an older impreza can usually be had for pretty cheap, lot of people get around 30 mpg from them so you could probably get decent FE and, they're usually pretty easy to find a manual in.

There's also the legacy sedan which is a decent choice but I would avoid anything before 2000 because of the ej25 having pretty bad hg issues in the 90s. Unless you don't mind replacing the head gasket yourself it's not too hard and there are tons of tutorials on that on different subaru sites plus you can get the car for a lot cheaper then.

I do recommend you look into the impreza though they have the ej22 which is a awesome engine and might just be perfect for you. The hatch is also kind of similar to the metro too.

Sounds like a fun project. When I was looking for my $1200 beater, I found a lot of vehicles, but the ones I was most keen on was the Saturn S-series cars (specifically SL1 and SC1). They have the highest highway EPA rating of most cars of their era unless you get a HX or TDI or something fancy. Some cars beat them in the city (provided they were lighter), but not by much.

Boneyard find?
 

I'd consider anything manual shift 3-4 cyl in my area! Though to be honest (1) there aren't many Subies locally (no dealership), and (2) as a rule I would probably skip AWD because I don't need it and mileage suffers vs. comparable FWD cars.

I have seen a couple of SL1's in the $1k range but they violated the "50 km beater" rule.

---

BONEYARD browsing...

I dropped by 2 new car dealers to see what they had in their trade-in boneyards (older, rough, or hile miles cars they send to auction or sell "as is" from the back lot).

One interesting prospect falls in the category of "spend more upfront, but resell next year and recoup"...

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1406568301

(The actual car in the boneyard)

• 2007 Civic LX sedan 5MT (34 EPA hwy), $2900 -- high miles for its age (214k kms / 133k mi.) and cosmetically poor: resprayed front bumper/quarter that's flaking plus a new small dent; pretty dirty interior; needs 4 new tires (at minimum).

Some quick research shows the cheapest '07 manuals in this area (170k kms avg.) are in the low $5k range. The cheapest '06 manuals (220k kms avg.) are in the mid $4k range.

That would theoretically give me a ~$1500 budget for taxes/fees/tires/repairs/inspections and re-sell next year at ~$4500.

Nothing to add, just a snarky reply. I'd love to see how a 3/4 cylinder engine would work. Would that be halfway between 4-stroke and 2-stroke, or something else entirely?

:p:D

Ha! Or a 1-banger with variable displacement... that's stuck. :D

Around here subies are probably the easiest car to find with a manual which is why I suggested it. But I think subarus are a hit or miss kind of thing either you have plenty of them or none at all

Yeah - good point. That's why Civics are extremely common here - they've been Canada's best-selling car for 15 or 16 years in a row.

Also, I just remembered I've eco-driven this same year & model of Civic before: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post375744

I saw ~40 mpg US (5.9 L/100 km) in city driving with basic techniques. It'd be pretty easy to get 50+ (4.7 LHK) around town with a bit of engine-off & pulse and glide. (Which is sort of moot since most of my winter driving will be highway use. Not sure what to expect with 75-80 km/h / 50 mph highway DWL though, which is how I spend the majority of my time.)

I've looked at the numbers a bit better... think I'm going to go have a closer look at this Civic.

That seems like a once in a lifetime deal I don't think I could ever find a 07 for that price.

test drove the '07 Civic
 

Well, it's not quite a screaming deal considering tires, mechanical & emissions inspections, and sales tax will put the car right at the low end of the "high miles" price range.

But I drove it and it felt fine. Everything works - cruise, A/C, etc. Clutch felt good, though the transmission is rev-happy like all recent manual Hondas - 2750 RPM at 100 km/h / 62 mph indicated. No onboard fuel economy display, and I didn't bring my ScanGauge for the test drive.

I made an appointment to have my mechanic do a mechanical/safety inspection. The dealership was nice enough to let me do that before making any sort of deal, so that's good.

If there are no big surprises, it's a go!

But you would probably need snow tires for a WINTER car up there anyway. Are the spent tires snow tires?

I always forget about the emissions and inspections and stuff. That's why I love michigan. You can put just about any car on the road. For $200 I could have my pick of hundreds of cars on CL that are total hunks of junk but if I insure and register them I can do whatever I want with them.

Lucky you! That's why I love Michigan too! "...O'ER THE LAAAAAAAND OF THE FREEEE..." :)

That's just not an option here. That's why I figured $1500 was the minimum for getting a road-worthy beater around here that can pass both mandatory inspections.

They're all-seasons. I've done some checking and there are good used tires in this size (205/55R16) available locally. And lots of winter tires, some on rims.

Seems like people sell their cars and either forget about the winter set in storage in the garage, or they hold on to them to sell separately.

Got it! My new winter beater...
 

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1405446396

Ironic things about my new "winter beater"...

- It's arguably nicer than the car it's "protecting"... it's going to spoil me. Lifestyle inflation!

- It's the second most expensive car I've ever bought (after the Flea).

- It's the newest car I've owned.

- On the eco front, it will be the heaviest car I've ever owned (1224 kg / 2700 lbs), outside of my 1964 Pontiac.

It may teach me to despise Honda's low geared, high revving manual transmissions. 2750 RPM @ 100 km/h.

But the price was right, it passed mechanical & emission inspections with no big surprises (needs tires, rear brakes & a battery), and if all goes well I will be able to re-sell it next year and recover my costs.

Or maybe it's all going to go haywire and make me appreciate automotive simplicity again!

I'll probably put it on the road around October, when the weather's still nice enough to fabricate & test some ecomods for wintertime duty.

Uh oh, Darin's getting all fancy on us! :eek:

Awesome! But 2750 rpm at 100 km/h (62 mph) that's really high my sunfire doesn't even hit 2500 rpm at 70 mph and that's with only 4 gears!

Still a great deal though.

Yup, that's Honda gearing (TM)!

But I'm looking forward to driving & modding it, and seeing what it can do.

Of course, now that I've done this deal, I found an unmodified, local '96 Civic CX 5-speed advertised today with only 125k kms (78k miles) for 700 bucks.

Note to self: time to stop looking at the classifieds.

Nice new car! looks nice!

well, in person...
 

Photos always hide the details. :) It's actually a little rough around the edges...

The front bumper is "sandblasted" with a hundred rock chips and needs repainting (or a bra). Previous owner must have lived on a gravel road.

And there is a collection of deep scratches on various panels, some with surface rust starting (prev. owner seemed to give up on touch-up paint after a while).

And a pretty big rock impact/dent on the quarter panel just above one headlight (both of which are sandblasted/cloudy), and a slight crease in the leading edge of one corner of the hood...

I could go on.

It'll clean up with some work, but in person it's clear why the dealer opted to put it out back in the boneyard instead of out front with the "nice" used cars.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what you can do with this car. Subscribed!

Doh! I'm not very Swift.

So, I realized I should have been searching for Suzuki Swifts all along, instead of mainly looking for Fireflies/Metros.

They were much more common, and 1.3L, 5-speeds are relatively easy to find (especially around Montreal -- these cars were pretty popular in Quebec). Exact same car as the 3-cyl aside from the engine, so mods-swapping will work.

I saw a 2001 Swift advertised last week with ~60k kms (~36k mi.) on it! Drat. OK, next year...

---

Civic cursory speed vs. MPG testing...

I took the car out for a spin this weekend. Observations...

1) Oh man, it's going to spoil me. Makes the Flea feel *very* rudimentary by comparison. :( Hedonic adaptation alert!

2) I did a quick set of bi-directional speed vs. MPG runs, and if these numbers can be believed (the Scangauge is uncalibrated), this car is going to do quite nicely:

UPDATE: gauge now calibrated; numbers below have been adjusted to reflect this.

Wow? Wow. Hope those numbers are close to reality. Anecdotally, another '07 5-spd Civic owner has told me they don't appear to be too "out there".

I'm not going to graph that until I have some calibration though. It seems too good to be true for a car with a 34 mpg EPA highway rating.

3) This thing coasts! I can really feel the weight in the car vs. the Flea. It's shocking. About 850 lbs more than a Metro -- like carrying another half Metro in the trunk.

Once I aired up the tires, that is. They were hilariously all over the map, from 15 psi to 30.

You gonna put a boat tail on this one?

Wow. My Fit is 50@50 and you're up there at 55.9. Nice.

Nice find. Did you say it needed new tires? It might roll even better after you get those.

I noticed the same thing when I went from my Metro sedan to the Civic. The Metro didn't coast very well but my Civic seems to go and go.

I think you are also noticing that the Civic is much nicer inside. While most (outside of this forum...) would argue a Civic isn't a luxury car, it does feel luxurious after driving a Metro. I am not trying to insult the Metro, either!

No plans to -- no trailer hitch for easy attachment points. Also, I'm only planning to keep the car for one winter, so won't be investing a huge amount of time in mods.

Yes, nice... IF those numbers are close to being accurate. Time will tell (and I'll post an update of course).

Yup, that's possible. Though my goal is keeping costs down for re-sale (probably used tires), instead of finding the best LRR.

Unfortunately, I just missed out on a great two birds/one stone situation: someone local was selling a set of Civic hybrid rims with original LRR tires for $250! I would have snapped those right up (they sold).

It definitely makes the Firefly feel like the very basic, lightweight machine it is.

On the other hand, I also just discovered one of the Civic's rear power windows doesn't work... and that's a problem I will never, ever have with the Flea!

Dang I totally missed this thread due to technical difficulties in the last few weeks. That's a good price for a car like that, on this side of the country anyway. My buddy ships Hondas from Quebec and Ontario to here because y'all get a lot more of them there so the prices are lower. I guess I'll just go scrap that 1.0L/5 speed Metro, it will never get the road trip across Canada it always wanted. *Single tear down cheek*. ha ha :snail:

I will also shed a tear for that old Metro. Sad to know that rust-free shell is going to be recycled into a small portion of an Escalade or something more profitable!

I'm seeing Civic prices all over the map! A local dealer has a 2-door version, same year, with half the miles on it for more than TWICE the price. :D

Speed vs. RPM: rev it & weep!

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1408044745

This car is not very good in sub/urban driving ... if you have to hit the brakes unexpectedly, it takes a lot of effort to fight the average back into respectable territory.

I struggled to get ~38 mpg US on a short, cold start round trip of a couple of km on the weekend with two unexpected stops from cruising speed.

51 mpg on the eco-driving coaching route
 

I took the Civic around the city route I've been using for eco-driving coaching today. No super-aggressive techniques used, but EOC wherever practical, and a couple of pulses where there was a chance for long coasts ahead and nobody close behind.

51 mpg (US) = 4.6 L/100 km. (That's on an uncalibrated SG.) UPDATE: now calibrated, it's 10% off, so ~45 mpg (US).

As it turns out, I've had two 1.8L manual shift Civics on this route before. The last time I went out with Phil in his '07 Civic 5MT on the same route, we saw a best score of 40 mpg US (no engine-off coasting).

And in an '09 Civic: 39 mpg US. So EOC in my '07 is good for roughly a 25% bump on this route.

Still can't touch the Firefly/Metro though: I took it out for comparison right afterward and saw 74 mpg.

Oh, and one thing I noticed that I really like about this car is how smoothly the engine restarts with the clutch. Butter!

All that mass behind it means you hardly feel a thing. Plus the 4-cyl fires much smoother than the triple in the Firefly.

Me too! What he said!

-benphyr

Posting for future reference & posterity:

Technical Overview of Honda's new R18 i-VTEC Implementation

snowshoes! (and gearing change)
 

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1409181689

Picked up a good set of four used Michelin X-ice winter tires on steelies today for a great price (150).

They're a little taller than the OEM tire (205 65 16 instead of 55) but they fit with no clearance issues... and they'll drop my cruising RPM a tiny bit. Win win!

>>> Stock tire diameter is 24.87795275590551 inches.
>>> New tire diameter is 26.49212598425197 inches.
>>> When the vehicle speedometer indicates 80 KM/H.
>>> The vehicle speed is actually 85.2 KM/H.

Gearing change of 6.5%

So RPM @ 80 km/h / 50 mph goes from ~2200 to 2057.

Now I just need to make up some smooth wheelcovers and we are good to go for the nasty season!

Cool, you got them. :)

Are you actually going to mod up some wheel covers?

Yeah - I'll just make some coroplast discs and zip tie them on I think.

Note the gearing change (probably was editing my post when you replied)? It's more than I thought it would be. Worth doing a speed vs. MPG test, I think.

Ride height is up by just over an inch, so I'm also motivated to extend the stock air dam down a couple of inches (coro again).

cloudy headlights
 

I am in Hamilton Ontario and also have a Civic with one headlight that is cloudy. Quite likely I will be in your area in the next month or so. Would you like to get one of those kits together and go nuts on polishing headlights together? (Then I can pick your brain and experience on eco driving too, meet you in person, drool on the flea...)

Alternatively, if anyone wants to chime in on a better/cheaper way to un-cloudy headlight lenses, please let me know.

-Benphyr

Daox and darcane recently discussed this. Here is one of the best posts in that exchange: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post439540

Let me know when you're going to be around!

I think these lights are beyond simple polishing... I'm sure it'll improve them, but they're pretty pitted. I'll probably try polishing one first (since I already have stuff to do that). But I suspect I'll have to do the wet sanding method for best results.

I've never done either method but the one replacement light I have after an accident is cloudy. I'll have to check whether it is due to physical debris or just polishable.

Do you mind me sponging off you for the "already have the stuff" for anything that is non-consumable? We'll have to pick the weather appropriately though. We want to go from cloudy to clear, not variable cloudy, overcast, foggy, or ... :D

Not at all - I don't have anything special though - was just going to try rubbing compound / polishing compound with a variable speed hand drill as the buffer. I'll probably do a test area before you come so we'll know how well that works.