A recent windtunnel surprise, Volkhart V2 Sagitta

[AndrzejM]

She's a beauty...

[Dawie]

Nice...

My guess is that the round little thingy in front (with the grille), is the horn/hooter.

[botsapper]

Originally Posted by Dawie

Nice...

My guess is that the round little thingy in front (with the grille), is the horn/hooter.

Could be, 1946 era VW horn. External and inset. http://i.imgur.com/Gh4ixnU.jpg

[NHB]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Please quote the source of your information.

From what I can see, all 3-4 cars mentioned are air-cooled and have inlets at the rear.

Porsche 356's have cabin ventilation, although as with the later 911 it's not very good.

The Volkhart V2 Sagitta (1947) has inlets at the front, could be for the cabin ventilation, front brake cooling, horn, or a front mounted oil cooler, I do not know for sure but if I were to guess it would be cabin ventilation (actually looks like a fan). Cracking a window open I suppose would be an option.

Ventilation system has to have inlet and exhaust ports. I don't see any ports for cabin ventilation. We know how bad ventilation early Beetles had. Why this car would be different in any way? In one of those pictures driver's side window is open. That gives us a hint how well the ventilation system works.

24 hp engine doesn't need much cooling. Beetle had a fan sucking air through that grille under rear window. I would't compare that to a 90 kW CLA. Volkhart V2 is sealed like a bottle compared to a modern car.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by NHB

Ventilation system .................

24 hp engine doesn't need much cooling..............

Yes, the cracked window is a good indication, nice catch.

About the engine, you got me to thinking about those wind tunnel images. I wonder if the engine is running and drawing air down? If the engine is not running at a high rpm, then is this wind tunnel photo a fair representation of real world conditions?

I've looked around at early VW Beetles, no pre-windshield cowl inlets as with other cars - ever. The earliest VW's did not even have a dash slot for defrosting, therefore the Volkhart V2 ventilation is no different from the stock cars (said aero advantage or not).

I did find some curious rear window seal conditions, doubtful a one off prototype would have operable rear vent windows, but possible. Tell me what you think, could have been remedied in a restoration.

V2


Stock VW
Late '50s-early '60s Beetle, interior - a photo on Flickriver



See attached image below for rear side window.
2-1035978_zps435760b3.jpg Photo by kach22i | Photobucket

[freebeard]

Not to say 'Told ya so', but I've pointed to the Volhart-Saggita a few times: Permalink

If that vehicle had been on sale in the 50s it would have had pop-out quarter windows as a dealer installed option (flow-through cabin ventilation from 1971 on). It does have defroster vents; but the stock batwing steering wheel is anachronistic given the later windshield wipers. The Beetle body is inhabitable in hot weather because of the door vent windows. Flip those suckers around and they are air scoops. The Volkhart-Sagitta has compound curve door windows.

Compare it to this

Wimille Prototype (1946-1948)
Initiator of the project - the famous French driver Jean Pierre Wimille. Work on the machine he started in 1940, in cooperation enlisted former Bugatti engineers and designer Philippe Charbonneaux...The first prototype was ready in 1946.

...and you will see that while the V-S cabin is 4-passenger (where the Porsche Type 64 has two staggered seats), still it's optimized as a high-speed courier for the Luftwaffe. The top of the rear seat back is substantially higher than the window line, and you definitely not wearing your helmet in the back seat.


These both (all three) definitely need to be re-popped in fiberglass. There was an active industry in the 1980s cloning MG-TDs, Cobras & etc.

The Type I/II lends itself to engine swaps (Evinrude outboard converted to steam?) . Here's a complete electric drivetrain in the form factor of a 911 transaxle:


There was an active industry in the 1980s cloning MG-TDs, Cobras & etc.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Please quote the source of your information.

From what I can see, all 3-4 cars mentioned are air-cooled and have inlets at the rear.

Porsche 356's have cabin ventilation, although as with the later 911 it's not very good.

Concorso D'Eleganza Villa D'Este 2012, Class C


The Volkhart V2 Sagitta (1947) has inlets at the front, could be for the cabin ventilation, front brake cooling, horn, or a front mounted oil cooler, I do not know for sure but if I were to guess it would be cabin ventilation (actually looks like a fan). Cracking a window open I suppose would be an option.

Link to front end detail:
Flickriver: Fine Cars's photos tagged with koenigfachsenfeld

I think that what is pictured is the horn.Not sure.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by aerohead

I think that what is pictured is the horn. Not sure.

That seems to be the consensus, it's what I now think it is anyway.

I'm not sure where a stock pre-1967 VW Beetle gets it's fresh air intake from though. My guess is that the Volkhart V2 Sagitta would be similar.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by kach22i

That seems to be the consensus, it's what I now think it is anyway.

I'm not sure where a stock pre-1967 VW Beetle gets it's fresh air intake from though. My guess is that the Volkhart V2 Sagitta would be similar.

From the photos,there is nothing which leaps out at us.If they do exist,it's possible that they are concealed behind the split bumper sections.These are located in the stagnation bubble,and even though there is no direct path into these areas,they would nonetheless have access to the ram pressure there,allowing harvesting for the cabin.
My Karmann Ghia takes it's air from this same location,although the bumper is below.Pressure is pressure,so air's got to flow if presented with a differential.
Another thought is that the inlet ducts on a K.G. form an integral structural member for the body.If hidden inlets ARE present on the Sagita,it's body would (could) enjoy the same.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by kach22i

I'm not sure where a stock pre-1967 VW Beetle gets it's fresh air intake from though. My guess is that the Volkhart V2 Sagitta would be similar.

In 1947 it would have been the door windows. Other options were the roll-back sunroof and the convertible. In 1951-52 VW tried 'crotch coolers', like a cowl vent except there were two in the front quarter panels—before they went to vent windows. I'm not sure what year was first for accessory pop-out quarter windows.

By 1967, you could have a 21-window bus with a fold-out Safari windshield and a full set of pop-outs. The only window that wouldn't open is the backlight. Those are available as an accessory today.

A Ghia like aerohead's dates from 1956. Flow-through from 1971.

...and it's a horn. Harley Davidson uses the same single post mount on the back, in case you want chrome.