Team Honda Thread
 

Link to team standings page:
EcoModder Team Competition


Just thinking the team should have a thread to discuss whatever is going on, anything of interest.

How are you guys doing?

Yesterday we just barely squeaked past TEAM VW AUDI Group - that's the good news. 50.75 mpg vs. 50.62 mpg, this morning. The bad news is, we just barely squeaked past them! :) So any slight change in either team's stats can shift the standings.

Team Metro is ahead of us at 52.26 mpg. If 1991 Metro 1.0 Auto gets its stuck thermostat fixed, that team will pull further ahead of us (I read the 91 Metro's fuel log notes).

So what am I gonna do?
It's been a few weeks since I've done anything substantial for Lean Burn Civic. I do hope to get out there this weekend to accomplish at least one or two tasks on the car. The front grill cover panel needs a bit larger air intake cut, and then primer over the cut edges. And two of the flat wheel covers need sticking down around the rim edges.

Because I was using the alternator all of the time last tank, I slipped a bit (to under 65mpg) because I am no longer willing to drive slower than posted speed limits. But I have a better strategy about the alt now. I cut the alt under three conditions now: on the freeway, during the last two miles of my commute home where I plug in, and while climbing unavoidable mile-long steep hills when the speed limit is over 40mph. Under those conditions the ECU always puts the alt at max output, so cutting it and then regenerating down the opposite side with DFCO seems like a good strategy.

I also returned the tires to 60psi (they had slipped to 55). I could feel the difference.

But right now I am not as focused on the car because I am researching split system air source heat pumps for a new heating/cooling system in my house. ..but I do have my list of car mods... ;)

Me joining the team probably didn't help :). I'm just getting started. My milage should steadily improve, I hope :)

I apologize as well, my last tank was horrible. Sorry but I can only tolerate 100+F for so many days:cool:, yes I used my AC, grrrh. Plus my SG is still acting up. Hoping to get it back on my current tank... 320mi on the odo and a little under half tank.

I drive a ton of highway and it's killing my FE, any tips? I get better MPG on city with EOC, which isn't easy on the highway. I am (usually) moving so traffic isn't the issue, it's (holding) 53MPH that's hurting me..

No apologies needed. Each of us is dealing with real world situations. As for a/c, when I need mine, I put it on recirc and "pulse and glide" the a/c. I leave the fan on 1 or maybe 2, and cycle the compressor on and off as needed. Works nicely in moderately hot weather but I haven't tried it lately in super hot weather.

Yes, my HX did better at somewhat slower speeds. I've now done a few aero projects so they combine to give real improvement at higher speeds. See the car's page (Lean Burn Civic) to see the list of mods.

Tire pressure - for me, the sidewall imprint is a starting point. ;) I think that would help highway mpg.

Between the aero mods and well pressurized tires, I find I actually can pulse and glide at highway speeds. You DO need to limit that to times when the cars in front and behind you are far enough away so you don't enter their zone as you lose and gain speed.

Getting started is a good status! :D

A few good mods, well executed, and adjusting the nut behind the wheel, and you definitely should see improvement! If you'll look at Lean Burn Civic's early fuel log data, back then it got upper 30's in winter and lower 40's in summer.

WIth this hot weather my usual 60-65 tank average has dropped to 49-50. Hell, Ive decided to park the Insight and drive the Sidekick til it cools down as that heat makes the phev kit cut out from the heat and the ac is marginal at best. :eek:

@brucepick-
Yes I have found, when needed, that method with AC works wonderfully. While I have done many aero mods, I feel it can be better, which is what I am shooting for. My motor 'D16Y8' was the biggest made that year (96), I believe.. I kick myself because I could have had an HX, but the timing was not right. But great info :thumbup:

@Cobb-
Thanks that makes me feel better that I'm not only one suffering with the heat :eek: Luckily it will stay cool for a while for us in Chicago for a couple days...

Go Team Honda!!

Hey guys, new to Team Honda as well, but have been squeaking out the best I can out of a Ford until it finally crapped out. I'm so happy it's toast; I've been wanting to get a Honda for a long time. Getting used to a manual transmission again and learning all the hypermiling methods for a manual will take a while. So I have lots of room for improvement. Since it's an old 93 I won't feel bad about any aeromods. Now I have to look into an MPGuino or however you spell it. The UG I have won't read a thing on a 93.

Nice little car! The MPGuino is a good idea, and so is a vacuum gauge on your dash. Using it, you could practice the "driving with load" ("DWL") technique. DWL, pulse and glide, and EOC are the secret to maximal hypermiling a manual transmission. These gauges would pay for themselves quickly. Did you do any of these with your old car?

My favorite totally free and easy mod: I have run my tires at 60psi for more than a year, so does PaleCivic (I got it from him). You'll have to make your own judgment as to safety, but in my personal opinion tire technology long ago put most issues to rest. I recently talked-over my mods with a Bonneville record holder, who casually told me he routinely runs tires at 80psi. Mythbusters episode 153 showed that increasing tire pressure will, in fact, increase MPG. It works, it's free, and you'll get longer glides!

Do you ever cut the engine while coasting in neutral? When I first tried bump starting at 40mph--using brucepick's description--I was amazed.

Bump starting from coasting in neutral -

Clutch down, put shifter in top gear, regardless of road speed.
Using a quick up-down foot motion, spin engine just a bit, then push it back down.
Reaches idle after about 1/2 second.
Then put in proper gear for your road speed.

My 5th gear synchro is a bit temperamental so I often bump it in fourth.
You want high gear because you need low rpms spin to start the engine. No lurching that way.

Agreed on all points, though I haven't used a vacuum gauge myself. Love my MPGuino. I use the ScanGauge for the other engine data like engine temp.

I'm also a member of the hi-psi fan club. That's all I had better say about that!

I placed a 40 watt solar panel inside the back of my VX to maintain the battery at a good level.
Then I placed a 120mm power supply fan over the existing flapper vent in the back.
The fan can be setup to run 100% off the solar panel or thru the car battery assisted by the solar panel.
I set it up manually right now to run off the solar panel so if there is enough power the fan starts up on its own.
So far it seems pretty effective at maintaining a cooler car.
The solar panel seemed to have given me a large boost in tank 108, my personal best tank of 65.43 mpg, but tank 109 dropped again so it was only marginally better.
I still want to add an alt kill switch, however my VX is built for Canada so there is no ELD which seems to be required if I am to follow the examples from others.
Canada requires DRL's so that would eliminate the low power demands that the ELD would govern.
I unplugged the alt multi wire plug but didn't notice a change in volts at the battery, then I removed the alt belt and drove for about 45 mins before the battery voltage was way down.
I would eventually like to have a system like brucepick's but I need to figure my alt out first.

WD40,

I know I'm being dense, but where is the rear flapper vent?

The solar cell connected is directly to the battery without using some kind of voltage controller, right? Does it sometimes send more than 15V to the battery?

brucepick:
The vent in the VX is located inside in the back rear drivers side, its a small louvered opening in the molded plastic wheel well covering.
In behind that is the flapper vent that flaps opens to under the rear bumper so when you slam the door the extra pressure has a place to go.
The solar panel has a controller thats used for the battery, but if you unplug the solar panel from the controller then plug in the fan, its all the power it can muster.. last time I checked it was 27 volts at 2 amps, tho it slows with any clouds or trees passing, the fan seems happy.

Cool! Our own club discussion thread. :D

Yeah, I'm running 60 psi. I've gone higher but been lazy in keeping it up, so it's down to 60 right now.

I just replaced my CV axles so I'm no longer pop-pop'ing around corners.

I guess this is a good place to brag about my 70 MPG tank! :D

Is there much benefit over 50 PSI? That's where I have my tires.

I need to do more aero stuff and install my CRX HF trans for a 1000 RPM drop in cruising RPM. :)

I was amazed when I broke the 50 MPG barrier in this car. I thought that was about as good as it could get. I say that with every record tank. I don't mind being wrong. :)

Since my job ended in Dec, I no longer have the 52 mile (each way) commutes into the NC mountains and have been doing mostly shorter trips of about 20 miles into town, so I'm not have to gas up very often. Most trips get about 70 to 80 mpg.

Seems the group thread is a hit - good idea, Bruce!

I have a conflict of interest here, being a member of that team too. :D The good news for Team Honda though is I'm driving the Insight during the warm months, when it can get spectacular MPG, and the Firefly (Metro ) in the cold ones, when it doesn't.

I don't fill up the Insight a whole lot (I don't commute). My next fill will probably be later this month or very early August. The good news is I think it's going to be my best tank so far: 93.5 mpg showing on the OEM computer @ 700 miles (no promises). ~1/3 tank remaining.

I still have a bunch of other mods I want to do to the car, but too many other things on the go, it seems. They're on the list!

Tried a beaded seat cover yet? You might be surprised how much more comfortable it is with the air gap they provide. I call mine "my air conditioning" - it goes in the car for maybe 6 weeks of the year.

Wow! That's a huge jump. Congrats!

I generally don't go above 55. Diminishing returns aren't worth the increasingly harsh ride ... and the reduced grip on loose surfaces (I do drive on gravel roads from time to time - though lift-off oversteer can be fun :D ).

FYI: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post265379

Oooo!

Learning Pulse and glide and EOC. I've got a loose grasp of driving with load, but have no topography to speak of here on the prairies, so I only really get to use it on bridges and over/underpasses. I have no instrumentation yet that works with this car.

Battery is wimpy, needs a good cleaning and a solid charge tonight. I haven't been able to cut engine at lights due to wimpiness so I've been just creeping up to the reds and bumping at silly slow speeds to idle if I have to stop. On a good morning I can get through 20 km of city driving with only stopping twice. We don't have freeways. Afternoon is stupid with traffic. Much stopping.

I just bumped the tire pressure up to 44 from: get this: 30 front and 20 back! It's still technically my boss's car so I'm not going higher than that for now, but wow, he must not have checked for a long time. I just got 55mpg today on this last tank so imagine where I can go with some real time feedback and these tires that aren't marshmallows now.:eek:

Ok now I get it, this is to assist in moving cooling air through the vehicle for comfort. I wasn't getting that.

If salary negotiations go well I'll be putting some more work into this car. This looks neat. So do those beaded seat covers MetroMPG was mentioning.

Well its not necessarly the heat that hurts the mpg, but the nut behind the wheel that uses the ac. The ac really eats into your mpg on an eco modded hybrid of any make. I see a good 15 mpg reduction. Then with the high compression engine the newer insight has with its dual ignition system IDSI system it starts toretard the engine once it gets over 186-190 degrees and lowers the cvt ratio. With or without a grill block, when it exceeds 100 degrees its pushing 200 at the engine when its engaged. When its pushing 100 degrees outside, the IMA system takes it easy as its at its upper operating temperature.

In my experience the Insight likes 90 degres with 100% humidity for best mpg. Using mid grade gas helps hold the timing and cvt ration higher, but its not cost effected for the bump in price between fuels. So far sheetz is the worse, BP is the best in how the Insight behaves. When it has bad gas, it retards the hell out of the valves and plugs and you end up with what sounds like a gutless throaty rice vehicle.

I've been trying to become a member for several weeks now. Finding a decent HX has been a challenge, so I'm opening up my search to DX or CX Civics as well. '96-'00 Manual Civic regardless of which trim level.

Good luck on your search!
I scoured craigslist for several months and finally got an HX that consumed oil.
It's better than it was, I think, but it has its issues.
My wife's '96 Accord DX runs like a top but only gets 29-30 mpg.

Civic DX came without a tach but apparently it's not too hard to put one in.
Probably the same with the Civic CX.
Just FYI.

On this page:
FAQs - Frequently Asked (Tech) Questions - Honda-Tech
See section 17 g. for some how-to's on the general topic of cluster guage swaps.

Would I be allowed to join team Honda? I drive a Acura Integra, but it is made by Honda. In Japan it's a Honda Integra.

Your recent 45.63 mpg = nice!

As I see it, Acura = a Honda.

Ouch. Job ended is not nice.
I've been there and wouldn't be surprised to be there again one day.
Hope things are going well.

My current tank is at 75.4 mpg. My route has gotten very friendly (no classes means I go to the office less) and I am back to using my alt delete in the challenging 50 mph steep hill environments.

Petby, do I understand you correctly? DWL is not about topography. I thought that too. Then I learned it is about the load on the engine from operating the car, independent of topography (though effected by it). If you get a vacuum gauge installed, people here can help you learn the technique, which involves brisk acceleration at a specific vacuum range, followed by cutting the engine, gliding, and bump starting to repeat the process. You would see a major jump in FE from such a practice.

This stop-go traffic is little or no problem for me on the LA freeways because I cut the engine, bump start, close gaps DWL... sometimes traffic improves my mileage, depending on topography. You have got to learn this. It will change how you experience the road. I would put the vacuum gauge at the top of your mods list, and you can get them from the ricers cheap and to mount in the moldings of the A-Pillar beside your instrument cluster.

This transformation would be fun to watch. Please do this. If you were close to me, I'd come help for the experience.

... in a twenty year old car, driving normally on the freeway. Still one of the absolutely coolest cars here. Though 3-wheeler's Insight is amazing.

:)

:)

That will be a great addition. We have 27 cars on Team Honda, currently. More than most of the other top ten teams combined. You'd really bring up the average with a 93 mpg log entry!

Impressive.

That's a good description of pulse & glide. :)

DWL (driving with load) A.K.A. "target driving" is a precision cruising technique where you finely adjust the accelerator position to keep a desired engine load (MPG target), and speed varies as a result as external factors affect load (aero changes, terrain). Instrumentation is required for DWL, not necessarily for P&G.

Lean burn drivers know about DWL! :D

No promises! But I will try.

You could easily knock out 100+ mpg tank after tank with this car, but it would require slowing down more than I want to, and/or using more P&G. That's the beauty of lean burn, tall gearing & good aero: with this car I can get ~80-90 mpg summer tanks just by driving with load, cruising in lean burn at around the speed limit (secondary roads, 80 km/h / 50 mph speed limit) with a ~100 MPG target on the instant MPG display.

I'm officially aiming for a distance record with this tank. My current best is 88.5 mpg / 1133 mi. Max tank fill was 13.85 on a different tank. The 1133 one was a short fill. :( This one is a good fill, and I'm going for it.

School's out for summer, the weather is warm. I'm avoiding unnecessary trips. I've unloaded 25 lb of stuff from the car. (manuals, floor mats, tools, old insurance papers, plywood trunk floor, kids' booster seats when not needed)

Old: 88.5 mpg / 1133 mi
Goal: 90+ / 1200+

Thanks Bruce! My best lead so far is a '98 with 179k miles. Owner has marginal knowledge of history of car (thinks timing belt was changed by previous owner at 125k, but not sure) and it's priced a little higher than KBB. But, every HX seems to sell over KBB here and it looks pretty solid with no major defects.

The beaded seat covers aren't like sitting on marbles? I've been tempted to try them, I don't even have the option of turning on A/C.

That was the thread that made me pick 50 PSI. :thumbup:

No! Well, sitting on many evenly spaced marbles is not like sitting on one marble.

I've had a few instances while bump starting where the engine wouldn't fire. I think the battery was still good. I had to pull over and wait a few minutes before it would fire. I could still crank the engine. I double checked last time to make sure I had the key in the 'run' position. Any ideas?

Sorry it's proving a little frustrating.

Since the car fires up, I don't think your problem is the battery or anything mechanical. So if you have it in the run position and not just in the "on" position and it does not fire on a bump start, I would suspect your technique. Sometimes when I lift the clutch I do it just a little too little and nothing happens, so I do it again. Occasionally I get a slightly harder bump than I would prefer, but usually my passengers never notice the bumps until I tell them about it, so I know I practice the technique reasonably well.

I would say keep practicing under safe conditions, where you can pull over as you wish, where there is not a lot of traffic to hassle you.

I agree and have similar issues as well. I have found it can depend on how far you let the clutch out as well as how fast. It is easier at high speeds and can be done at lower speeds, it just requires a little more attention.
@pletby- If the bump doesn't work, I always use my key as the last resort.
If you are unable to bump, can you use the key? If not it could be the battery or fuel pump issue, but I am just shooting in the dark.
Sorry for any typos posting from my iPhone :)
-Dave

My guess is that even cranking the engine using starter did not get it started. In that case I'd suspect tuneup parts - plugs and distributor cap and rotor. Often they're rated for 50k miles or more but you can see wear after 10-15k.

The distributor itself can get worn to the point where it needs a rebuild. You could ask Califprnia98Civic for diagnosis rips; he rebuilt his.

I've had a couple rough days.
I'm about half way through my current tank and I think it's at about 52-53 mpg, not pushing close to 56 like I usually am these days.

Once this week I had to run the a/c some due to the heat.

Then, and this is potentially much worse, this morning my 40 AH lithium [LiFePO4] deep cycle battery would not maintain needed voltage while driving. I charged it up at work and then on the trip home, after about 25 miles or so the voltage dropped to about 10V. I've never had it that low, even driving three hours. I'm attempting another recharge on an alternate but I'm not sure what's up here. I sure hope this battery hasn't given up the ghost. It's what powers nearly all my electrical, with the alternator deleted due to disconnected.

This happened to me in my '91 DX hatchback. Sometimes it wouldn't bump start (and I believe I'm reasonably skilled at doing this, it's simply not... starting...), and when that happened I also couldn't start it with the starter either. Crank and crank and I got nothing. If I Waited about a minute and let it rest without an attempted start, that would fix it and then I could get it started (bump or crank). Sometimes if I could coast that long it would start, other times I'd have to just let it sit (pulling over, or sitting at a light with angry people behind me). This was common enough for me that I stopped turning the engine off unless I knew I could coast a *long* time - so I seldom did so. I got the hang of when I could usually get away with it, but it was always a risk.

I never did figure out *why* this happened and none of the repairs I ever dumped into the vehicle made any difference.

Well, I'm sitting just above our team average at the moment--51.85mpg vs. 51.37! Mainly because I just finished up a long road trip to New Jersey with my best-ever and third-best tanks (finally breaking the 56 mpg mark). I'll fill it again tonight or tomorrow and see what I got on the last leg, hopefully bringing my average up a little more.