Thank you
 

I have been told that, if I am to continue posting here, I am not to address any posts that Aerohead makes. That is unacceptable to me, because unfortunately Aerohead is the greatest source of misinformation on this subgroup i.e. the one about car aerodynamics.

What he posts here falls into one of four types of posts:

- completely wrong - that is, utter garbage, that no-one versed in the field would ever support (about 40 percent of his posts)

- misleading in context - that is, because of what is *not* said, quite misleading (about 30 per cent)

- misleading because Aerohead has been proved utterly wrong and is fighting a stupid rear-guard action where black is white (or vice versa) - about 20 percent, but rising quickly.

- really good and interesting posts - about 10 per cent.

Apparently, the owners of the website are happy with this this mix, no doubt because page views are good when such misinformation is being spread without challenge.

As a book author, I find such an approach impossible. In my books, I go to endless lengths to try to nail everything down correctly. For example, in the aero history book, Professor Jeff Howell and I sometimes had 5-6 emails back and forth, all about one tiny point on a single page!

Doug Milliken (one of the most famous names in the field of vehicle dynamics, ever) with whom I am working with on my current history of suspension book, is even more pedantic! (Which is great.)

It is all light-years from the approach taken here: and I just find it impossible to switch effortlessly between 'anything goes' and 'here is the definitive account'.

A few weeks ago, I was told that I couldn't address Aerohead's BS in this forum - and I have considered how to respond since.

I am really sorry, but I think that getting real and credible information out to car modifiers is actually really important. (Why? Because I spend hundreds of hours modifying cars. Yeah, strange I know. Who else would care about such a waste of time of heading in wrong directions? Certainly some here who never lift a finger to do anything real in car mods - it's all just a game to them.)

So unless there is a dramatic change here, goodbye. It will certainly save me many hours of thinking and typing!

Thank you for your contribution.

thehill.com: Is the antidote to bad speech more speech or more regulation?
BY JAMES D. ZIRIN, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 04/19/21 08:00 AM EDT
Swaying public opinion is an art-form. In the best of times ....let alone i today's contentious atmosphere. What we learnt in the 1960s (and subsequently forgot) is that to fight it is to feed it.

Agreed. I would add obsolete, debunked and outdated information, usually to the tune of 20 to 30 years ago then clings to theory and modeling when real experiments with observations have been preformed.
Just put him on ignore and continue to post away it will drive him nuts.

20 to 30 years isn't that long. :) All the important work was done in Zeppelin's wind tunnels.

And he does change his mind. In The Lounge (where he seldom ventures) is a post called 'magnetism and earthquakes, wherein he agrees that empty space is full of magnetism. It's only a short step to realizing that magnetism and electricity always and only coexist.

I couldn't get him to stop with The Template, but Julian Edgar did. Baby Template never got the acclaim that Aerocivic did.

.

As far as I’m concerned you’re both arrogant, pretentious pricks, and y’all deserve one another. Lol...

Also...

It’s my belief we should...

https://i.postimg.cc/MHQh5BXK/7-F119...-B5105-E34.gif


However...:(

Having said that, I realize they’re others here that require a safe space and it’s disturbing to them.

Therefore in reality...

Darin is going to do what is in best interest for this site. And, well, you can’t blame him. 🤷

Unfortunately, this is where we’re at.


But...But...But...

It’s easy to get around...

Just don’t mention aerohead specifically. Just say blah, blah, something, something.

Thus, it’s not a personal attack.

https://i.postimg.cc/Hkm5zCjQ/4-BADB...BA14-C73-E.gif



And guess what...???

We’ll figure it out.

Believe it or not, we aren’t that dumb. ;)


Also, should you choose to leave...

Who will be our contrarian and savior...???


Don’t be so hasty...

Think of the children...

😉


:D

>

.

Watching for a new user named Eulian Jedgar that disrespects capitalization of other peeps handles. ;)

We need to build a Thunderdome!

With blackjack and who-cares?

Attacking the ideas was never the problem; it was always the attacks on the person. It doesn't matter who started it (that's what children argue). Nobody would have been suspended if there had been civil discussion.

Exactly. Just because one person believes in HHO generators and another is absolutely sure they don't work doesn't mean that they can't respectfully get along. There are a lot of things I don't agree with on this site posted by others, but I don't take it personal. That doesn't mean I keep quiet either. But if they want to keep thinking that their way of thinking is better than mine that's fine because that's what I do to them. We can all peacefully disagree.

But like I said before, this a forum, nothing more. Edgar Julian seems to believe this is some kind of an encyclopedia collaboration. There are the Ecomods and Hypermiling lists that are kind of an official reference. But not everything that's put on the forums makes it there.

At one point [citation needed] I suggested the Wiki could use some attention, it was like whistling into the wind.

Not as much fun as venting frustration, I guess.

I guess you're going to agree with me that peacefully is not an option for those who are actually willing to pose as a know-it-all, instead of genuinely willing to help on someone else's attempts to improve something.

Yes, I can't be bothered being subtle. You either 'get' evidence - or you don't.

To be honest, that just shows your utter and profound ignorance of car aerodynamics.

Jaray (working in Zeppelin's wind tunnels) was important, yes, but to suggest that he did all the important work is just absurd.

I am not interested in playing stupid games.

Rubbish. You appear to be assuming normal rules of discussion. But Aerohead is never wrong...ever.

No matter the evidence.

Then it becomes ridiculous.

And furthermore, it then becomes a case of of actively endorsing (through silence or agreement) stuff that is absolutely and completely wrong.

Edgar Julian actually believes that a discussion group should give advice founded on fact. Bizarre, eh? What an extraordinarily notion!

"But if they want to keep thinking that their way of thinking is better than mine that's fine because that's what I do to them."

Maybe that's why the US is in the state it is currently in? (And after such a glorious technological history....)

Because people babble absolute crap like this?

Um, why would I contribute to a discussion group Wiki when I have written literally hundreds of thousands of published words on this topic? (And words that have been endorsed by real experts in the field.)

If that was addressed to me, I don't actually consider myself to be "a know-it-all"- in fact I am well aware of how little I know.

That's why in lots of threads I say nothing - I know how little I know. I contribute only to threads where I am fairly confident I know something.

If only others here did the same!

A different topic, but all this is going to start all over again with my next book, a history of car suspension.

I am have been working on the book closely with Doug Milliken, one of the most famous names in car vehicle dynamics - and we've had lots of very robust discussions back and forth.

(And Doug has been superb to work with. As have all my other experts.)

The published results will reflect my writing input and Doug's technical input (as did my aero books with their respective tech experts) but will go against many prevailing wisdoms - especially on discussion groups.

[Shrug] - whatever! ignorance knows no bounds.

I have a huge advantage. I know I don't know a lot, so I listen very very closely to the real experts.

So you're saying I should shut up and stop posting anything on EcoModder since I'm no exptert? Is there a vetting process I need to go through to post here? So you think the US needs to become a dictatorship and force everyone to believe just one thing? You don't think there's ever a chance one person's wacky idea that goes against what's accepted mainstream will ever turn out to be a good idea?

Gee, I was hoping the screen door didn't whack a posterior. Hope in one hand.....

Wait a minute! Is that a fact? Only facts can be posted on forums. Do you have the propper documentation to prove that as fact? :D

Mr. Julian... The thing is that if you have posted facts I have a hard time finding them through all your emotions. Everything seems to bother you. And that's what I get from your posts. Why not just state your facts and move on?

I find a lot of people who are perhaps a lot less knowledgeable than you a lot more helpful, simply because they are kind and patient.

If I ask something like "would putting wings on my car make it more efficient" or "I think that tractor tires on my car may get me better fuel mileage" a kind "that probably won't work, but you can try if you'd like" would go so much farther than a harsh "YOU FOOL!" would.

Even if I'm suggesting to others that HHO generators, the color of their paint and rabbit's feet are good ideas a kind "I don't think those suggestions would work" is a lot better than "GET OUT OF HERE!"

The reason is you can't control what others post. You can only control what you post, so make them good and others will benefit.

Uhm, what? You actually write books yet cant make a coherent sentence. What state are we( the US) in exactly? You are in no position to determine that from your current location. Just as i am not in a position to determine the current state of your country. But let me back up a bit.
Lurk here often and rarely contribute. Upon first discovering this forum and your posts i was intrigued and interested. Subscribed to your YouTube channel for a bit. Then observed how you harshly treated others on this forum. Googled your name and found more than one forum where you got banned for being pompous and arrogant. Unsubscribed from your video channel and moved on. My late grandfather had a saying “those that do what they always have done will get what they have always got”. You said your goodbyes but just had to return and go point by point against what others here had to say. Now you are not only coming across as more pompous and arrogant, but can add to that the type of person that feels the need to get in the last word. Take care Julian. Signed someone that will never buy your books or watch your YouTube because Julian is a jerk.

People like being treated with respect.

This is similar to how I feel about some of the local shops and stores. The quality of the products and price may be better at one store than the other. But I go to the store where they treat me nicely. Maybe they're just doing it for money, I don't know. But it's much better than going to the store where the clerk is a complete jerk and nearly makes me want to murder someone after dealing with him. At that point the deal I got wasn't worth it. If I have to pay more to be treated nicely I'll do it.

In the end, humankind doesn't need cars and airplanes, even ones built to perfection by experts, in order to be a happy thriving society. We need love and respect. Otherwise the cars and planes just end up being used as weapons.

Julian Edgar -- Eight posts in an hour and nine minutes. You have more in common with aerohead than you imagine.

Why would you not? Copy pasta into the Wiki would not be monetized but would spread [your anonymized] message better than contending in the forums.

I'd predicted Eulian Jedgar.

Well, yes apparently that is now indeed a fact, for documentation, see above.

Lots of strawmen in that argument.

I think that people giving incorrect advice to others is a bad thing, yes. That doesn't seem to me to be a very surprising notion.

I think that one line summarises your viewpoint: Why not just state your facts and move on?

Facts are facts because they're facts, not because they're "my facts".

Again, it seems pretty obvious - a fact is a thing that is known or proved to be true.

Much information that is posted here is incorrect, and has been over a very long period.

I have this bizarre notion that it is better for people modifying their cars to be given correct information. Weird, huh?

That all seems a bit childish, but maybe that's just me?

I object - and object strongly - when people are spreading information that is quite incorrect, and others are then wasting their time in following that incorrect information.

I get very cross when people deliberately and with intent continue to disseminate that incorrect information, irrespective of any evidence that is presented to show how incorrect that information is. So yes, I am harsh on such people - frankly, I think they are a pox on advancement.

In most discussion groups there are enough people who know sufficient about the topic that clearly incorrect information gets shut down over time. Unfortunately, that's not the case in this sub-forum. Instead, and remarkably, the incorrect information gets accepted as common knowledge and is heavily defended when anyone points out how wrong it is. I've seen some really knowledgeable people come and go from this subforum - obviously leaving when they realise that correcting the misinformation is a waste of time as no-one takes any notice. (And one of those people helped me a great deal in one of my aero measurement techniques.)

It's very clear that the depth of confusion and misinformation that is spread here is completely unrecognised by nearly all of this subforum's participants. If the same rubbish was being posted in an area where people typically have a better understanding (eg measuring mileage) then it would have been called out long ago.

A good report will evaluate both sides from a more or less neutral stand point, even if the author is absolutely sure one side is incorrect and the other correct.

Signs of emotion (passion about one thing, hate about another) and dogmatically sticking to what the author deems as fact are signs that the information could very well be false.

Let the information speak for itself. No need to start a war.

Well, I don't agree with even one thing you have written.

1. As someone who actually teaches writing to people writing high level reports, equal weight should never be given to points that have no evidence. That's what we're talking about here - points that have evidence versus those that do not. They're not matters of opinion.

2. Signs of passion mean that people care. I care when people are given the wrong information. It makes me cross.

3. You cannot let the information speak for itself when people have incorrect ideas about the fundamentals and so cannot even understand the information.

4. I will start a war - as you describe it - when people ae being deliberately and constantly mislead.

It went down like this:

I proofread and corrected* in my own head and didn't rise to the bait and call it out myself. But I did notice.

*why for what

You don't have to agree. But you're not doing to get anywhere by forcing people to believe the truth because you can't force beliefs. People will take you as a closed minded, dogmatic propagandist even if every word you say is the absolute truth.

But go ahead and go start your wars. Once you've tried to make everyone else feel stupid and ignorant see how many really care what you say.

How bizarre. You have no problem with information being disseminated here that is quite wrong?

I've said it here time and time again. Don't believe me - don't believe a word that I say. Go and do you own research, make your own aero measurements, read the aero textbooks for yourself. Then the amount of misinformation being promulgated here will become obvious. Unfortunately, though, nearly no-one here can be bothered doing any of that, and so continue being sucked-in by weird theories, incorrect statements and points taken out of context. In your words I am not sure if that's ignorance or stupidity - or simply intellectual laziness.

I'll just say it one more time, then give up.

If you want to help people, you got to act like you actually want to help them.

What's more important, the patient or the illness?

People are like strings. If you want them to straighten up you have to pull them, not push and prod them.

Bullying others doesn't prove you're right, it doesn't help prove the facts and it doesn't help anyone really.

The best teachers, mentors and role models draw out the good in others.

Even someone with a mountain of evidence can still come off as sounding dogmatic.

If propagandists can get others to believe things without proof, why wouldn't having both proof and persuasiveness not work?

Patience is a virtue. People who don't believe you now may believe you later if you leave the door open for them.

i don't need other people to agree with me to try to help them nicely. I'm trying to help you nicely and you don't agree with me. You can do the same if you only want to.

Sure, but all that is invalid when you have a person here who refuses to correct his misinformation, irrespective of what evidence is presented to show how that information is wrong. For him, night = day if he says so.

And it further becomes invalid when you have people who religiously believe what that person says, again irrespective of any evidence that shows what he is saying is incorrect. For them, if he says night = day then, obviously, it is.

It's all honestly at a scale I have never seen before. Like, when I pointed out the invalidity of The Template, (invalidity in how it was constantly being used) I had people here tell me that I should go and read the textbook references that were being quoted in support of it. Trouble is, there isn't even one textbook that supports how The Template was being used - all the purported links to references were just made up! When you have someone that deluded - and so many followers of the delusions - then normal rules of engagement become quite invalid.

As someone said to me privately, aerodynamic understanding here is just like a cult, with the people so immersed in the cult they think it is normal.

That was not meant to be taken so personally.


Everyone will act at least once in their lifetime as if they considered themselves a know-it-all. According to others, seems like you're doing it quite often. Maybe it's not intentional.

It is you Julian. You announced your departure from this forum a couple days ago by stating “ So unless there is a dramatic change here, goodbye. It will certainly save me many hours of thinking and typing!” Yet here you are still thinking and typing. A bit childish indeed. You are now exhibiting a textbook case of narcissistic personality disorder. Taken directly from the Mayo Clinic page on the subject:

“ Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people”
Example: you frequently mention others in the field of aerodynamics that you communicate with that validate your claims, yet those of us here on this forum are “a pox on advancement “
“ Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior”
Can easily site and quote multiple examples of you doing exactly that.
“ React with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make themselves appear superior”
Example:
“ I object - and object strongly”
“ I get very cross when…”
“ I will start a war”
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20366662

Take care Julian.