Turbo as a charger?
 

So after viewing the Mercedes F1 Split Turbo explanation video I've had an idea...

Why couldn't we use turbos to charge an electrical system similar to an alternator? Instead of have it belt driven, attach the alternator to the shaft of the turbine...?

Would this even be possible? Or would it generate enough electrical charge?

I think someone mentioned this idea recently and the answer is that turbos spin far faster than alternators, so much so that it would not work.

I'd be interested in figuring out a way around that...

Turbos spin at 80,000 - 200,000 rpm, right? And an alternator spins at about 1/50th that speed?

So wouldn't we just need some way of stepping down the speed of the input to the alternator?

Those step down gear boxes are expensive and the ones I know of are only approved for 40,000 to 50,000 RPM. Most are only used for around half of that.

This system would be so expensive there wouldn't be any point.

How about turning the turbocharger into the generator/alternator. Make the magnets part of the turbine and have the windings inside the turbo?

But I have seen threads like this before, unless a major manufacturer gets involved I don't think this is going anywhere.

IIRC the electric power supply for modern jet aircraft is supplied from a similar setup.

Eh, just mount the magnets directly to the shaft and pickup coils around them. Voltage would be sky-high but feed it through a transformer to jack the amps up and there you are.

I've fantasized about replacing the distro in my pickup with a racing-style magneto-distributor, which really would make the truck my go-to zombie apocalypse choice. Take out the ignition duties and replace all your lights with LEDs and the alternator doesn't have nearly as much to do.

Of course as I said, it's a fantasy.

[edit]
Oops, I see Daschicken (?) has beaten me to it.

There are race cars that are doing this already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_919_Hybrid

How Formula One's Amazing New Hybrid Turbo Engine Works

-soD

I still consider a magneto the best setup for spark-ignition. No wonder they're still prevalent in piston-engined light aircraft and even in some motorcycles. BTW you might remember that some off-road motorcycles, even when fitted with EFI and some weak headlight, don't even have a battery and rely only in the electricity supplied by the magneto. Sure you wouldn't wanna get rid of the battery in your truck because of the starter, but anyway, a magneto is a reasonable option.

Plausible
 

Not true any more.
Brushless DC Motors, Servo Motors, DC Motors, Permenant Magnet AC Motors, AC Servo Motors, Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motors, High Speed Motors, Custom Motors, Gearheads, Encoders, Motion Control, Slotless Motors, Sensorless, Ironless Motors, Vacuu
has this

http://www.koford.com/Generators.pdf[/COLOR]
This is rated up to 400,000 rpm

If you use a waste gate housing you can regulat the shaft Speed. Or even better a VGT (Verible Geometry Turbine )

"Oil pan 4 Those step down gear boxes are expensive and the ones I know of are only approved for 40,000 to 50,000 RPM. Most are only used for around half of that.

This system would be so expensive there wouldn't be any point."

With the gen set parts in the link, the need for a gear box removed ,is this posable?
As for expensive all R&D is. The key is to use off the shelf parts.

My thoughts add 2nd turbocharger ,my rig already has1. Maby a vgt turbo link . Replace the impeller (as it is the thrust bearing pre load) with a spacer and direct cupple the BLDC400, 000 rpm motor/gen to the shaft.
The reason for wanting this not to be in my Intake sys., is simple. Any failure bits and pices would go through the engine, resulting in $1000s of damage. Develop and prove the sys. before putting it on the primary turbo. Also on the primary it would increase lag. And the rule of 1/3. You can recover 1/3 of the waste energy per stage. Eg 160hp into the turbo 120hp bown the pipe and 40hp at the shaft
Gumby stay flexible.

Nowadays with the downsizing trend growing strong even in "conservative" markets, such as Brazil, it might seem as an incentive to go further with the development of a commercially-viable approach to integrate an alternator and a turbocharger in less than 10 years. Though it's likely to be more of a supplement to the conventional engine-driven alternator in non-hybrid cars fitted with start-stop, any enhancement to the energy recovery provided by a turbo is worth something...

Gumby, any idea how much they would charge for one of those generators?

Don't use a generator, just use an RC drone/helicopter motor. Not hard to find one rated to 30k rpm, and it'll cost you like 100 bucks.

Dr. Mad Thrust Series Motor 4082 - 1400kv for 90mm EDF /8S

41000rpm :)

If you do some back of the napkin calculations, it should be able to pump out more power than a car alternator, you just have to step it down with a DC DC converter.

This is essentially a motorcycle or race car PM generator on crack. Those spin at 16000rpm and have a really good power to weight ratio, now you're just increasing speed and decreasing torque.

Using the air in a non-direct cupple options
 

I did not find a listing may take a phone call.
One more, plausible option Lander 70mm (1700W) 10-blade EDF Unit inc Motor for 6S LiPo
This could could be mounted in the intake system after the Intercooler, it has a plastic blade . A metallic or high temperature plastic blade can be 3D printed to permit hotter Intake Air Temperature. To take advantage of the hot expanded (higher volume ) air right off the compressor. Again risk of failure in a prototype =$1000s damage . So not so good on primary turbo at this time. I am thinking a secondary as before, this time leave it intact and blow through 1to as many as you can afford@£79.95 ea without building to much backpresser,causing the valves to flote.
After much testing this could then advance to the primary and under low boost (turbo lag )it could be powered as a blower of sorts. Negative pressure on the Intake impeller should spool faster. As well as 1-3psi boost at idle posable ( I don't know how thrust translates) More research is in store.
Theory to contemplate. Each ducted fan unit would cause a presser drop =reduction of air temperature., as well as a venture effect.
If we can find one of theas rated for 700°f continuous it could be mounted straight in the exhaust pipe or 1.5"size 1 in each header primarily. Pulses on a moment befor the valve opens then transitions to Generator mode. Ideas I'm full of them.

Gumby stay flexible.

Transferring the energy from shaft to compressor to fan is going to be abysmally inefficient, well under 50%.

Those fan blades are also bad for this application. The primary source of energy in the exhaust is the high pressure waves produced when an exhaust valve opens. A turbocharger's turbine is pretty good for this because the exhaust is directed in the direction of the turbine blades' travel, which creates more torque for the same transfer of momentum.

The way I thought of for converting a typical turbocharger to an electric, high efficiency turbo is to grab a turbo one size up (to get a more efficient exhaust turbine) with very high A/R, either swap the compressor to something smaller or mill down the blades to reduce the pressure they can produce, and then somehow extending the shaft a bit so the electric motor can be fitted.

To pulse or not.
 

50% of3300w free/wasted energy is still a benefit for a un engendered off the shelf prototype device. This reduces the cost of build . The power loss is the rpm buffer alowing more common slower motors to be used
In the Edf ideas the power path is: exhaust gas to , exducer/shaft/inducer ,to air ,to Edf fan,smoothing or elminating the pulse issue. With a properly engineered stator befor and after the properly engineered fan blade the % could go up and if you stack 3-5 uinits @50% you are getting more out of evry drop of fule.
As for proper size on a direct drive non-edf ,a VGT or waste gate to control voltage /RPM , and as you stated oversized would be good. The parts for 700°f do not exist yet most only have 200°c limmit. This limmits us to the intake side of the turbo. On the diesel example the turbocharger would be up streem, smoothing the pulses on intake or exhaust. For the header idea the fan was powered before the pulse to create a vacuum @the valve.then would change to gen set mode as the presser changed ,all ready @ operating speed.
4 different ideas were conveyed. 1) blow through form inducer to free air , no pulse. 2) blow through from inducer to engine,(not recommend for prototype ) no pulse . 3) blow through after the turbo, no pulse. 4) in a non turbo system yes pulses are fast and short. this is why it would need to be @speed at the start of the pulse hence the power application part of the idea.

The trick is going to be keeping the bits and pices of a failed prototype from going through the engine causing a totle loss . I for one don't have $5000 laying around for each prototype failure . That is why the slightly off topic ideas.

1 more thing this could bepart of the answer to a cost-effective Turbo Jet APU ( Auxiliary Power Unit ) made from an old /new turbo. Look up turbocharger jet on You Tube. Normally the reduction box cost makes this idea cost prohibitive. The number of uses are more than imaginable.

I for one am glad the power hungry Rc world exist they push The envalope and get better equipment. That we can then throw in a non-standard application for cheep,compared to the R&D that gose Into devloping a ultra high speed BLDC motor.
They did the same with batteries.



.Gumby stay flexible.

In the last few moments I've become convinced (Not Saying It's True) that Ecomodder is censored. This subject can be found only in the Unicorn Coral, but I recall having created a thread on the subject that is GONE!

For the record, here are new external links:

Beltless Blower: Electrifying the Supercharger - Tech Dept. - Car and Driver
How electric superchargers went from fantasy to feasibility

So what do we learn? In addition to the problem Xist cited, heat does bad things to magnets.

The BMW effort uses a third turbo to supplement two [conventional] others.

Tin foil hats don't help.

Tin foil hats effectively prevent pregnancy... or even dates...

Freebeard your citations contradict your statements .

From the 1st, "The electrically driven compressor shown below reaches its 70,000-rpm maximum operating speed in only a third of a second, according to its maker, U.K.-based Controlled Power Technologie"

From the 2nd one,"Mazda's efficiency-focused i-Eloop system feeds a supercapacitor and then uses the power to run the car's various electric components—but not an electric compressor."

"This is the technology that takes electric supercharging out of the realm of snake-oil fantasy and into legitimacy."
I stated:
As for heat and magnets agreed that js Why i stated ["The parts for 700°f do not exist yet most only have 200°c limmit".
/Resources/Temperature_Effects_On_DC_Motor_Performance.pdf
"
TABLE 3. Temperature Coefficients for Various
Permament Magnet Materials
Magnetic Material
Ceramic. -0.0020 / °C 300 °C
Samarium Cobalt (SmCo) -0.0004 / °C 300 ° C
Aluminum Nickel Cobalt (AlNiCo)-0.0002 / °C540 °C
Neodymium Iron Boron (NdFeB)-0.0012 / °C150 °C
αmagnet( / °C)
Tmax(°C)
"
All but NiFeB are above 432°f 200°C stated

"My thoughts 2nd turbocharger ,my rig already has1. Maby a vgt turbo link . Replace the impeller (as it is the thrust bearing pre load) with a spacer and direct cupple the BLDC400, 000 rpm motor/gen to the shaft." No heat on the inducer side with the inducer removed.
And PERMALINK 14
"This could could be mounted in the intake system after the Intercooler, " The IC (Intercooler )should be putting out air at below 160°f in 110°f ambient ,this is for a porely designed system . A premium system clocer to 140°f@110°f.

I was just providing the top current links on Google; I didn't review them. I don't know what Mazda do. BMW use two clutches, so the turbo can spin up quickly, then run as a conventional turbo, then run as an exhaust driven generator.

The parts are shipping in new models and should be entering junkyards at typical BMW rates. I recognize that you are homing in on another solution.

Miss information
 

Try again this time read the article before before spouting off miss information
Nothing about the clutch is mentioned in the article.
[QUOTE]Sound hybrid-pricey? Supercapacitors are generally more expensive to make than batteries, but costs are coming down. Mazda's system comes as part of a big $2600 tech package on a $27,000 Mazda 3, so it's safe to say the supercap is ready for the mainstream.How electric superchargers went from fantasy to feasibility[/QUOTE ]

I don't mean to be upsetting , but you are a well respected member of the Community whose options matter, and up to now were taken as well informed. When you stated a reference a link as a sorce for information that has . No bearing on your information stated as fact, in fact it is the agreement for what we are trying to get past the Idea Stage is feasible. And as a well respected mimber of the Community request that this doable idea be moved to the Unicorn Coral with contradicting citations as evidence. This as quoted from in Hyperlink #17 as stated in same article in the past these things did belong in the Coral . Now with current technology it no longer is unobtainable.

---------------
Tighten the hose clamps on a home built BMW unit and the inefficiency losses should help to keep the speeds in check s o the 70,000 BMW motor dusent frag. But parts are available to go past 200,000 .

Using an exhaust-driven generator integrated to the turbocharger doesn't seem to belong in the unicorn corral, but I still consider it more as a complementary source of electricity instead of a replacement for a traditional alternator. The only way to get rid of the alternator in a production car with an internal-combustion engine so far is still a hybrid setup, but it's also possible to keep the alternator and actually use it as an auxiliary motor to provide some mild-hybrid ability like in GM's e-Assist.

Thank you
As for supplemental power agreed.
As for getting rid of the alt.
Keep it just repurpose it similar to how member of the Community have posted on Ecomodder.com... toggle switch and more complicated. Some go as far as complete removal. Not me with a 200A load @start-up, from Grid Heater, for up to 45 sec. And cycling till IAT remains above 60°f.
The thermoelectric generator could convince me however to do the alt. delete or this discussion makes headway. From a potential parts list consept . To prototype and beyond.

------____------
Funding for me is gonna be really tight for the next year. So for now I am working out the conceptual bugs and building a parts list. And you guys /gals are trying to accomplish the same thing as me . Kill the for see able bugsand arrive at f functional prototype.
I am learning how to communicate In writen Form. This will take time thank you for being patient.
Gumby stay flexible.

Also as an end game. If and only if we find a non-crankshaft power supply, then we can dust off Browns Gas and pull it out of the Unicorn Coral .
Gumby stay flexible

Well thanks for that; but I've always thought that I run hot and cold. So people have to think about what I say, instead of accepting or ignoring it out of hand.

This is not an area of expertise and I don't really care that much, but here is the original story from the 2011 patent.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/att...8&d=1318441606
BMW Patents Its Electric Turbocharger Technology. More Power, Less Lag.

The clutches are at 6 and 7. I think this is shipping in 2016 models but once again I don't care. Audi has an electric kompressor but I think it doesn't do regen.

That explains a lot. You said it just in time, I was tempted to go all Grammar Nazi but now I won't. :)

The clutch isn't really necessary, it just saves a little bit of drag on the compressor wheel, which doesn't really matter if you're not running at full throttle anyways.

If I ever get a turbo car I want to try DIYing an electric turbo.

You can put a prototype on a non turbo for the $$ because of the prototype failure =new turbo new engine if plumbed as a funnel . When I get to a building point it will be a secondary turbo. Tookeep the bits and pieces out of the engine. Unless we can get past the consept stage.

The only possibility I see for the regular belt-driven alternator to remain widespread in a next generation of vehicles is some integration of it into some sort of KERS, e-Assist, i-Eloop, EfficientDynamic, whatever you may name it. Among the high pressure for an increase in the overall efficiency, including the widespread of start-stop reaching even in the Diesels, one can easily predict that some hybrid-like feature will be present in all the newly-developed cars in about 10 years.

Belt drive is IMO still useful, but in the future it will be just for A/C (electric A/C requires a huge amount of power which is difficult to supply), and the alternator, which hopefully will have evolved into a motor-generator unit. There's no reason why the alternator should be dead weight under acceleration when it can provide extra power.

To the future
 

cRiPpLe_rOoStEr Agreed
With the widespread and continued development and proof of concept ni BLDC motors/ controllers. BLDC will replace every single crankshaft HP to include the cam most likely a form of linear actuators directly attached to the value no spring . How much more HP can be freed up by removing all that parasitic load ? much more than a 10HP BLDC ,or at least large enough to move the car. A direct drive covering the harmonic balancer. Also makes no more finger traps. This liner actuator idea could open all the valves for Engine Off Costing. The computer can run a downgrade algorithm to control speed.adding valve movement to increase resistance. This would solve the battery full run away problems, that I've experienced with my cousin's '14 Leaf. Or something like what we are developing as a power supply it has a HP limit of 1/3 of the waste heatas a turbocharger as a BLDC spinner who knows with the increased efficiency of direct drive Vs shoving air. Or use a BLDC strong enough to stop/stall the engine disapating the kinetic energy into a supercapacitor and a small bat. to top off the supercapacitor after long storage , instead of letting the energy be absorbed by static compression.
Ultimately the petrol engine has had a Hart attack and is dieing, poor fellow don't even know it yet. Maybe 15 years left as a pure petrol production model ,not accounting for E-85 /B-10 they are already re-engineered for now. And no form of electric motove force aka hybrid, across the board yet. Once we can make enough non-crankshaft electricity., then the sky is the limit on MPGs . 1000mpg is possible. But alas the future is to far away to see yet.
Gumby stay flexible.
PS keep the ideas coming we have 100,000RPM motors everywhere in the RC world. Dose any one know? If we can keep the turbocharger down to <100,000+10% ? With a 1)waste gate. 2)VGT(Verible Geometry Turbocharger )

The A/C might eventually become gear-driven with the power supplied by the flywheel-integrated electric motor in a full-hybrid. In a slightly longer term, only mild-hybrids are going to retain accessory belt drive.

F1 cars are hybrids and it has become a fuel economy competition. They use a motor/ generator on the crank and another on the turbo that can alternately harvest energy from the exhaust and act as the variation to control boost pressure. Or provide supercharging boost until the exhaust flow comes back up during first acceleration.
.
https://youtu.be/HDtMehBCpl4
.

The next video was Mercedes Benz's effort

https://youtu.be/zQsOgYzl7Q0

They put the motor-generator right on the turbo; while Renault have a driveshaft separating them. I think the Renault design's MGR will live longer.

This is really good technology for hybrid passenger cars eventually.

BMW is supposed to release one of these (electric-assist turbo) soon actually. In a few years you may be able to buy one from the junkyard and retro-fit the electronics to work with any car.

The only way this would make any economical sense today is if you have very good fabrication skills and a lot of time. Attaching a generator to a junkyard turbo is not too bad if you can make a bracket, you'd need to fit it to your exhaust which is also not too bad, then you'd want to rectify and smooth the generator output and send it through a DC-DC converter that's commercially available. Parts cost could be pretty low but it would take a ton of time.

Electric Turbo, 48V Electrics Onboard New Audi SQ7 | Engines content from WardsAuto

An electric supercharger is a step forward but not quite half as cool as an electric/ exhaust turbo which also harvests electrical power.

In the '80s, while developing a turbodiesel 1.6L ceramic engine, Isuzu fitted it with some sort of exhaust-driven "regeneration" system that could harvest about 11 to 14hp with a small generator integrated to its turbocharger.
https://www.allcarindex.com/auto-car...-Ceramic-Aska/

BMW showed an electric turbo a few years back. It was one of three (turbos). It harvested energy in one direction and compensated turbo lag on the two big ones the other way.

Spindy but doable on oure scale
 

Saw the early post and remembered to call Turbonetics.
Verified I my hypothesis that we can regulate shaft speed to a specific max rpm 30,000 was an achievable goal, with a waste gate or vgt.type turbo-charger ,teck support realized what I was asking when I referenced the BMW and Mercedes F1 Split Turbo power generation units unfortunately Turbonetics dusen't offer any 1st of 2nd gen cummins parts anymore use to have manifold to exhaust tip. He referred me to his friend at HTturbo.com. I'll call them soon.
I still think that a NA or compound setup would be wise for prototyping

2028 Extreme 800Kv Brushless Motor
This 10hp RC motor is rated at 12s (series x4.2v =50.4v x 800kv = 40,320 rpm and a max rpm 45,000.
10hp burst( 60sec)how long do you expect to be wide open this seems long enough.
with the standard 50% derate for continues is a potential of 3kw of recovered electricity .
Dreem big chisel down to reality
Chiping away
Ps Roster the link is not working says under construction.