U.S. Scrappage Scheme Moving Forward
 

Since we last reported on the situation, the two sides have come to an agreement on how to move forward with the scrappage scheme. Both sides have compromised, and a lot of the worst parts (like that American-only clause) have been stripped from the proposal, but it’s still nothing to be happy about.Having become even [...]Related posts:

1. Auto Scrappage Plan May be Coming to the U.S.
2. Ford Upgrades Trucks for “Super Fuel Economy”
3. Toyota Claims Bigger Engine are Better for Fuel Economy

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so my 1981 Comutacar and my 50mpg 1970 subaru 360 will need to be scrapped under their plan because they are old an inefficient?

Nah, but I have a feeling the underlying causes might enventually make it read that way as they aren't doing it as much for efficiency as a bailout.

According to that article, they don't NEED to be scrapped, but they may be and you won't get any kind of rebate unless that car's EPA is less than the one you're buying to replace it.

Don't the japanese have a much more agressive scrapping program for engines?

I totally agree that a 1mpg EPA difference does not warrant a big government check. How about "scrap your vehicle and buy a replacement having 20% better EPA rating and we'll give you x dollars". This way there is some incentive for all those hummer driving soccer moms to get into a prius. Your list made no mention of ditching a truck in favour of a car.

so wait....my audi gets 19mpg (epa rated) so does that mean if I trade it in for a 41mpg Smart car that I won't get the $4500?? The article only mentioned vehicles with less than 18mpg.

This will suck if I can't get the voucher...I was really hoping to do it.

MazdaMatt -

(Someone chime in where I err)

From what I have read, the Japanese market is far more aggressive when it comes to planned obsolescence. They make the re-certification rules so stringent that you almost *have* to buy a new car every 4 years. This helps the Japanese domestic automakers because they have an almost "guaranteed turnover" when it comes to sales at home.

I think this is what makes the JDM aftermarket so lucrative. You can import an otherwise "young healthy" engine from Japan that was too old to pass Japanese certification.

I would have kept the "American Only" clause. Technically it's "my" tax money, so I want it to go to domestic manufacturing.

I would modify the rebate to be a scaling delta-T equation. Forget about a specific before/after MPG. How about $200 for every MPG better than the previous MPG? Changing from :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1241731956

To :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/attachmen...1&d=1241731956

Would yield => 29 - 15 = 14 => 14 * 200 = $2800

CarloSW2

.

^^ now that's smart!!

Something I don't agree with is the idea that we should be FORCED to buy american with that rebate. I think American manufacturing should compete for itself against the others. I don't want to be forced to buy an inferior product for a discount.

Another thing is, assume I was forced to buy American and I decided to buy a new camaro. Those are made in Canada. I'm not "really" buying american am I?

Electric Frenzy -

I agree that it's complicated, but I want to favor American jobs with my tax dollars. A lot of people won't agree with me on this and that's ok. I fully understand and respect your POV, but I still want American jobs to be favored over foreign jobs.

They have a domestic content on automobile stickers. The scale could be modified to reflect that :

Same initial equation: 29 - 15 = 14 => 14 * 200 = $2800

However, let's say that the Pontiac Vibe example only uses 70% domestic content. Multiply the rebate by the ratio :

$2800 * 0.70 = $1960

Here's an article on "domestic content".

A Closer Look at Domestic-Parts Content

CarloSW2

Just to chime in: I think this program sucks. While the japanese market export their old cars, this plan will be crushing perfectly good cars in large numbers.

Stupid.

I wouldn't consider my 1992 Audi 100 as "perfectly good". It's a 100% clunker...hence the name, cash for clunkers. It's no like I'm trading a 2006 Dodge Viper for a prius.

Also, can someone else verify for me (or do I have to wait) that I'll be able to get this credit even though my audi is rated at 19mpg? I've already picked out a lovely new 2009 Smart Passion at my dealer. I told him as soon as the law was signed I'd pick it up.

Electric Frenzy -

Here is the latest I can find, but I don't think it has the details you want, :( :

U.S. House members reach deal on cash for clunkers - May 5, 2009
CarloSW2

that sounds to me like it means you have to average the city/highway mileage for your vehicle and get UNDER 18mpg. If that is the case then no'one will ever use this money. It's too strictly worded to do anyone any good.

That sucks because I was hoping for that goofy little car under $10k.

Re: "buy american"

That list above tells me that it doesn't matter if you're buying Ford, Chevy, Toyota or Honda - you're still buying "mostly" american with any choice.

Also re: "buy american" in general
It is stupid. Get out of that mentallity. You want to push canadian cars out of your markets, you'll be paying more for beef and lumber in scale so large it affects your grocery and housing costs (these are just a couple examples). "buy american" didn't work in the depression, it won't work now. Let me reference Ben's "no more corn syrup" thread - a "buy american" policy on sugar drove your sugar prices up to the point that health-diminishing high fructose corn syrup took over your grocery stores. (I didn't mean for this to devolve into a politics conversation... but i suppose that's what the title post is about).

Does anyone know if the Japanese policy has people replacing their whole cars, or just swapping to new motors? I know we get a huge influx of motors from japan (love it!), so i wasn't sure if the japanese were just swapping motors to keep up with the regulations.

Hello -

Here's an update :

Congress Moves Forward With Vehicle Scrappage Program

CarloSW2

I am very much against this for a number of reasons. But one that is important is that destroying the drivetrains will remove a pool of parts, good parts and good rebuildable core parts for older vehicles. I do not like the idea of being forced by the government to limit my freedom of choices... Or to be forced into buying someting new every few years, jsut because.

Maybe this will create jobs for people to build NEW car parts instead of refurbs.

I know that I wouldn't buy a reman unless I had no other choice.

Sounds like you need to hit Craigslist and pick up a barely-running old junker trunk for $500. Remember, there's more than one way to exploit a loophole.

Clev -

That's what I was thinking, but it's such an obvious loophole. My *guess* is that you have to own the car for X amount of time. The current legislation is for one year, so there is the possibility that you'd be stuck with the clunker if it is not extended.

Now I want to see the exact text.

CarloSW2

Here in the UK a similar scheme has just been started. Whatever the terms and conditions, the intent is to get people borrowing money at interest, I feel.

That's a good point... between the increased borrowed money and the increased auto sales... i wonder if anybody was "thinking green" when they came up with this. I feel the conversation started "what's a good way to fix the economy", rather than "what's a good way to get gas guzzlers off the road". By having people dump a 15mpg truck for a 17mpg truck they aren't making much of an impact, I'm afraid.

Now in cases where a vehicle is a gross polluter, I can see where a program like California has (had?) can be a good thing. But don't force those of us that have decided we don't want new, to buy what we don't want.

Is it their intent to force anybody to do anything? Or are they just trying to persuade people?

MazdaMatt -

There's no force involved, just an incentive. A similar plan was invoked in Germany and saw a 40% increases in sales. You can argue that the Kei Car policy in Japan is also an incentive program because it promotes tiny 600 CC cars. I *think* it complements the other laws in Japan that discourage large car ownership.

I don't mind this for "economic" reasons. You can argue that it is greenwashing, but under today's economic conditions, it's ok with me.

CarloSW2

I agree fully.

Here in the UK ive heard adverts for many manufacturers mentioning the scrappage scheme. Some offer more than others.. (Fiat £2000, Ford up to £4500, Skoda up to £4500, etc)

In my mind though, its just a government ploy to get people to borrow money, with the side effect of then having more people driving lower pollution cars.


Has anybody else noticed though, that this offer is only on CARS.... Why not on motorbikes and scooters too? It would get more people onto two wheels, create less traffic in cities, more efficient.. (1 person on a motorbike or 1 person in a car? Which takes up more room, which is better on fuel, which doesn't get stuck in traffic as much) Really bugs me that governments are going on about everybody needing more fuel efficient cars, when so many people could get away with using a motorbike/scooter and only having a car as a second vehicle.

/rant... Sorry.

Is it required to be NEW-new? I'd be willing to scrap my Lumina (EPA 08 17/27/20) for say, an '04 Civic Hybrid 5MT (EPA 08 38/45/41). In my area, they can be had for $4500 to $6500. I'm not in a position to finance for a NEW car.

The bill pased the House on Tuesday and is on it's way to the Senate. I hope they don't screw it up too badly.

I think it's another bailout for the auto industry, just labeled as being "green" for PR. I guess if they were going to do it, though, it is good to motivate for somewhat higher MPGs, and you have to compromise somewhere.

I am kicking myself though, my wife wants a NEW car with high MPGs and I sold my '91 Ford F150 (14 mpg) last year for $700 to buy the escort. Arrrrgh!

Looks like the bill is all but passed. I will probably be trading in my baby (93 Cadillac Deville). Probably will sell my 99 civic cx hatch too. Just waiting to see if the Ford Fiesta or Toyota IQ come out in time for me.

The qualifications to receive the dough is pretty easy...your car trade has to be EPA rated at 18 mpg or less and you have to buy a car EPA rated at 22 mpg or higher for $3500. For $4500 you have to buy a car EPA rated at 10+ mpg higher than your trade.

For SUV's you have to buy an SUV rated at least 2 mpg higher than your trade for $3500 and at least 5 mpg higher than your trade for $4500.

So the EPA rating cutoff seems to be at 22 mpg for the new car purchase and 20 mpg for a new SUV purchase. I guarantee you will see some shenanigans with EPA ratings in the coming months. What happens to all the new cars that get 21 mpg and new SUV's that get 19 mpg...they are now on the death watch.

Building a new car instead of maintaining an existing car is RE TAR DED. I have a special stapler for the reproductive organs of anyone who thinks it's a good idea to scrap a running, or one-repair-away-from-running machine. The future doesn't need retard DNA.

Anyone who thinks cars are ruining the environment needs to look at all the other outright wastes of resources we do that are less visible to the public than cars. Ever see how many acres of carpet and vinyl sheeting and cardboard and lumber that get simply thrown away into landfills from trade shows? How about all the miles of tape and shrink wrap? Every single week. Every major city. How about the hundreds of thousands of people flying from everywhere in the globe to visit the trade shows? Jet fuel ain't green. How about the millions of tons of freight shipped back and forth to the shows in diesel semi trucks? That's just my industry, WASTE WASTE WASTE WASTE WASTE. I won't make as much pollution in my whole life with every piece of trash I throw away, with every mile I drive in a 4x4 all my life, as is produced from ONE big trade show. Now think of all the other industries wasting needlessly?

Cars aren't the problem, they're just VISIBLE to idiots who can't think on a bigger scale. Old cars being scrapped is retarded - old cars scrap themselves just by getting used, any program intended to accelerate that is as wasteful as throwing away momentum by braking, except sometimes you NEED to brake - you don't NEED to throw away running, already manufactured, already DELIVERED TO THEIR AREA OF NEED cars. How much fuel is wasted bringing a new car to you when you already have a car? How much fuel is wasted bringing the resources together to manufacture a new car? How many petrochemicals are used, how many noxious chemicals are created as byproducts from manufacturing a whole new car?

Retarded. Utterly retarded and disgusting.

Matt -

Ha ha, I've never owned a car with EPA rating below 20 MPG, :rolleyes: .

CarloSW2

My gas burning, oil burning 1979 chevy pickup does not qualify...WTF??

I was waiting for this to pass to get a new Tdi, but my clunker does not qualify, yet it pollutes more and burns more gas than cars that do...:mad:

Why?

Bill has a MAJOR flaw!!

It applies only 1984 -2002 model yar cars...why??????

My clunker can't be traded and I'm pissed.

I misread the article I linked. I thought it said "1984 or older." I wonder if my father would've been able to trade in his Pontiac since I don't know when in the 80s it was. My brother already gave it to a friend

Vwbeamer -

You might be able to blame the SEMA/aftermarket folks for that :

Congress Moves Forward With Vehicle Scrappage Program | Specialty Equipment Market Association
There you have it. Year 2009 - 25 years = 1984 .

The size of your brother may vary,

CarloSW2

I suspected SEMA....:mad:

It's not like my old truck is a collectors item.

Bottom line - the scheme is to help those in the car industry

Vwbeamer -

I think you're taking the fall in order to protect the Bandit's Trans AM :

http://bandittransamclub.com/gallery...ree/myta01.jpg

Maybe you can transfer a 1984 engine into your truck and get it registered as such. I suspect it won't work, but who knows?!?!?! It doesn't even have to be a good engine, just one that changes the car's registration.

(grasping for straws, I know)

CarloSW2