Vetter Fuel Economy Challenges; Hollister CA 7/2/16, Mid-Ohio 7/10/16

[gregsfc]

Originally Posted by sendler

Wh/mile are being shown in the results.

Cool. I hate going in and having to calculate the mpg-e myself; when all others are already listed for me.

[Grant-53]

Have the results from this year's challenges been posted yet?

I use an electric mower, trimmer, and chain saw because my lot is small enough to use extension cords. For the open road a diesel/electric system would make sense for a long distance vehicle a la locomotives which are also looking into using natural gas.

[sendler]

These results should match the official results that Craig will post on his sight when he gets a chance.
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Schultz Engineering - Custom Motorcycle Parts and Renewable Energy Products
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Check out the video interviews also.

[gregsfc]

Originally Posted by sendler

These results should match the official results that Craig will post on his sight when he gets a chance.
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Schultz Engineering - Custom Motorcycle Parts and Renewable Energy Products
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Check out the video interviews also.

Great post! Thanks, and congratulations on the Honda with a tail!

Honda engineering much better represented in this ride than the one I attended two years ago where I kicked the other stock mc's tails with my CTX700 by 12 mpg, but none was against any modern,stock Honda in the small to medium range in that ride. Two 250s did really well in stock form. Like to have seen a Forza and a full streamlined Honda, but still impressive and should make a statement about how economical some Honda models are. Wish I could have attended this one to see if I could replicate around 100 mpg like I did in the 2014 event. Have not come close to that since, but that ride brings some high numbers every year, and they did in 2016 as well. If anyone thinks it's not valid, they'd be wrong though, because I carefully recorded and calculated just as I do at home for the 2014 ride, and my calculation put me at 96.9, which was about 14 beyond my best and 14 better than any tank since, yet the ride is round trip; has stop and go, but also some slow highway and higher speed interstate in it. The official results that year took me up to near 102, as they sort of took the median of everyone's trip meter, which I thought was not a good way to determine distance. The big difference for me had to be that I was tucking most of that ride, and if I had come to this one, I'd tuck again, but won't risk it back home commuting.

Electrics are amazing with respect to super-low energy use. So much more of a difference than one sees with comparing compact cars where the difference is more like 2.5 times better for average electric versus average spark ignition, but a typical stock mc around the 650 range might return 50-55, save Honda mcs', and the Zero S should easily return 200 driving equally. All three e-mc's returned over 300 mpg-e; curious about how they didn't finish one, two and three, but I'd have to figure some things out to see how 360 mpg-e would fair with my utility company + road tax. I just looked at my last bill and I'm at $.11 per KW/hr. and my guess is that at the rate I pay, the e-mcs' would have easily won here, though you won't see me go out and spend $16K on a mid-range mc and then thousands more for more batteries and charging power only because I'm impressed with the fuel economy. Have to respect the technology though; strange how the media and public seems not to care that a 100 mph-capable mc can get 300 mpg-e!

[bschloop]

If you do the math, 92wh/mi * 135 mi equals 12.42kwh at $.11/kWh that comes to $1.36 before road tax. Vic's ninja at 187 mpg *135mi comes to .72 gallons at $2.05/gal, or $1.47 including road tax. If road tax comes to even $0.15, or approximately 10% that puts the gas bike ahead, or if the price per kWh is closer to the $0.13/kWh that I pay in Michigan, that puts the electric even further behind. As for the media, they have ignored almost every advancement in fuel efficiency for years, why would that change now.

[sendler]

Just goes to show that gas is way too cheap in the USA right now. Yet we won't raise the road tax anywhere near the levels of the rest of the world to get people to stop blowing so much of it up in the air even though the highway funds for road repairs are completely upsidedown.

[gregsfc]

Thanks for doing the math. That's great information!

Isn't Vic's 187 the highest so far in a modern-era Vetter event for a gas-only streamliner? I remember Alan got 181 or so in 2014, and it seems like he's got that number stamped on his bike as his own, personal record.

Interesting...Even at my cheap electric rate, a streamlined electric achieving 360+ mpg-e still loses to a 187 mpg gas bike, with gas over $2.00, which is about $.13 more per gallon for gas than what I can find regular E10 for currently in middle TN. So even though my electric rate is cheap in TN, so is my gas. I normally use pure gasoline in my bike and lawn mowers, which is not even available in some states; but that stuff cost around $.50 more per gallon, which of course doesn't make sense financially, but it sort of helps reduce maintenance and storage woes with regards to the mowers, and it's just a way for me to protest ethanol for my bike, because I can justify it for my bike, since it doesn't cost much anyway, but in my 4 wheelers, it's just too much more money for just a little better mpg, so I can't force myself to buy it.

I'm not stating that I expected the media to suddenly get interested; I'm commenting only that I don't understand why this is so...how huge numbers can be published for these electric bikes and nobody but a few weirdos even care or take notice. Maybe part of it is that many Americans have been desensitized seeing huge mpg numbers published for this and that, and so they don't stop and think much about what that means. I noticed that when I used to spout off the real-world mpg of my diesel car; especially back in the days when no one had a modern-built, unmodified car that could get upper 40s (this is during the Prius 1 & 2 days and before many e-cars and more efficient gas cars), back then, it would cause little reaction from people when I'd say that's about 58% better mpg than the gas version of the same car. But, if I presented my low-fuel usage another way, that the car could go 700 miles in a real-world scenario, on 14 gallons of diesel, then they'd be impressed. It's almost as if a lot of people getting 15-25 mpg in their own vehicles just don't understand the significance of the difference in fuel usage when it's presented as miles per gallon.

Other than a too-low road tax in America, our fuel prices also get subsidized by the fact that the U.S. tax payers spend about $50 billion per year to ensure the free flow of crude oil and refined fuels around the world for the benefit of the entire world. This $50 billion estimation of the cost to keep oil and fuel distributed around the world is not reflected in the price of our fuel.

[Grant-53]

Yes, I believe 187 mpg is the top modern figure. The electric bikes have room for improvement in reducing air drag. Hopefully the price/Kwh of batteries will eventually improve along with the price of power from hydroelectric generation.

[gregsfc]

I like some of subtle changes that it looks like the event included (or didn't include) this year. I state "looks like", because I'm looking from a far. But what I mean by looks like is that it seems from everything that has been published so far that there were some changes (all to the good); especially as it relates to how the challenge was conveyed and communicated to the public and to the riders who are not part of the organizing; it seemed much more transparent: ..."the results"...were more descriptive and comparable and concise; non-4-bag-grocery-riders were listed up with the other riders, which makes it appear that the ride is not so clickish for only the streamliners..."the interviews"...on youtube were fabulous. I especially liked getting a good look at Scott's bike and what he had to say, and would love to do something similar to my commuter bike but just have zero carpentry skill; and I really liked that some pictures and quotes were taken of stock-bike riders and they got to show off them and their bikes, because that's part of why they came most likely; the comrade and to score well and get recognized for scoring well, i.e. the two CBR250s..."the stat details"... (the pdf version) gave lots of mileage comparison information; how stats were computed; what fuel cost measurements were used, exactly how road tax was applied to the e-bikes; and what electric rate was charged and how that conclusion was made, etc. And the most encouraging part of this challenge, as compared to the one I attended was... "the amount of self reflection or self assessment communicated in the article about how the event went; good and bad; and how to make it better next year". Now maybe this last point had gone on before, but it wasn't communicated to the public and riders as well as this one.

Now for my rant about how to make this ride more inclusive: To me, besides the distance I must travel to join in on a challenge and the fight I must have with my spouse, and the fact that these challenges get almost no media attention and nearly no participation beyond the streamlining community (which is probably no one's fault involved in organizing these events), the most discouraging, averse, logistically challenging, and the most subjective and unequitable part of these challenges for the near-stock bike rider has to be the 4-bag grocery rule.

My first argument, which is a rehash that's been made by many would-be riders and one-time participates, is that a motorcycle does not have to carry four big bags of groceries to be a very useful motorcycle. Of course this is subjective on what we all think is useful and there has to be some parameter set, and there is no set level that everyone would agree on, and so four tall, big bags has been decided as the parameter. But of course this favors traditional streamlined bikes to low riding, tucking-for-the-streamline-effect bikes, because that extra height is not needed or wanted and so luggage space has to be created outward, but for the inventive and those with the means like Fred and Scott, it has been shown itcan still be done, but then what that does is that everyone else who participates that does not have some sort of streamlining, is just sort of riding to ride, and we can all do that at charity rides back home if we're doing it just to see what we can achieve or for riding comradery .

I debated hard about attending the challenge in 2014. I knew my 54-liter Dewalt box wouldn't cut it, but on the other hand, with my lack of mechanical skills and lack of means to have someone build something for me, my choice was to use my very useful box and get on the "B" list, or put some kind of huge Rubbermaid box on my seat, which would have hurt my score and possibly had made my bike more unstable. So I showed up in 2014 with a 54-liter Dewalt tool box turned sideways on my pillion seat; the same way I always had it set up back in those days. The front rested against my back. It was water proof; it was about the same width as my body, and my bike was still very safe and stable but could probably carry only about 3 bags. In 2014, my own computations put me at 96.9 mpg, but sort of an average of the miles ridden were used instead of a GPS distance, and so my official mileage came out at 101.82 or something like that. The next best stock bike; a DR200, came in at 20 mpg under my score. But in 2014, even though I spoke with other riders like Alan and Vic and Fred who were amazed with my score on my stock bike, me and my bike did not get interviewed or photos taken.

But I remiss and am going to pretend that four, full big grocery bags is necessary to have a transportation future with motorcycles. It is at this point where the details of the rules make absolutely no sense. I'll use a hypothetical to make my point: Lets say for instance, someone shows up with a bike with removable saddle boxes and an easily removable top box that all together provide 90 liters of luggage capacity, and this hypothetical bike rider registers to ride in the challenge; and it doesn't matter whether he is streamlined or not; whether his bike and accessories can get 30 mpg or 150 mpg; this guy just wants to be a full-fledged competitor with a very usable bike and see what he can do and has added more luggage than he needs for riding back home just to be a legitimate rider. Maybe he wants to beat his all-time best, or maybe he wants to show to fellow riders in his own riding community that his bike can exceed ???mpg if ridden smartly. This hypothetical bike has all three boxes with a one-button unlock system, and therefore, in the real world, he could ride to the grocery store and park, unlatch his boxes; load his three empty boxes in an empty shopping cart out there in the parking lot (there are always lots of carts near by). He goes in the store; buys the groceries, and instead of putting the groceries in shopping bags at the self checkout, he then loads them in the three boxes; puts them back in the cart. He then takes the groceries that went straight to his boxes out to his bike and mounts them back on the bike; puts the cart in the corrale. When he gets home, he takes the boxes off his bike; one under his arm, the other two carried by hand; carries them into his home; puts up his groceries; and then the next time he goes outside, he mounts the empty boxes back on his bike. This sounds like a lot of steps, but it is really no more intrusive than someone who uses his or her own bags at the grocery store or someone who uses the store bags; and who is to say that this bike is any less useful than a bike that can handle grocery bags in an upright position; that are kept in the bags; but that's what happens. He just barely misses the 4-bag rule, because he has to take groceries out of the bags to fit, and so now, he can still compete, but he has a weight handicap, and so he can't do his best.

Just sayin'

[sendler]

I did mention about the bags this year since I use the plastic bags when I go shopping. Seven smaller plastic bags fit for transportation much more efficiently than four big square bags.
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Maybe you will want to make the trip next year so you can be there in case Kraig has us do videos again