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Old 09-26-2020, 02:15 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hersbird View Post
FWD works good in the northern states, but RWD is just a PITA, I don't care how good your traction and stability programs are. So I only compare prices of the AWD versions if there isn't a FWD version. Basically I'd prefer a FWD Tiguan over a RWD ID4, plus we don't get a state incentive. If the Rav4 prime was ramped up to exceed demand that may be the all around best. 80% of the time, maybe more battery only, and when you need a longer trip it's ready to do that without drama as well.
Any electric car with good winter tires does great, here in New England. If anything, rear wheel drive does better, because the steering and braking traction is separate from the drive. Rear wheel drive gives better traction under acceleration in all conditions.

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Old 09-26-2020, 02:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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We put in a $100 deposit on a blue ID.4 1st Edition. I will let you know how things proceed.

This will be our sixth EV in my immediate family, and my extended family's FOURTEENTH electric car.



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Old 09-26-2020, 02:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hersbird
They won't make the RWD versions of any RWD car rear weight biased because Corvair. So many people will die, it's just not a predictable handling design.
Every time I hear this I have to tamp down the anger all over again. Corvair had to die to advance Ralph Nader's career. Which was the high point in retrospect.

How many have died due to understeer? I can think of at least one.
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Old 09-26-2020, 07:26 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hersbird View Post
Well I've been a Montana driver for 36 years now and have to disagree about the RWD. I've tried to convince myself and even others like you over the years that a RWD can be fine but it just doesn't work out that way in real life. There is something about the front tires digging their path vs the rear following the path and pushing the front tires through the snow, that makes the fwd better. There is just more stability in pulling the weight, vs pushing it as well. Probably why they tie the dogs up in front of the sleds rather than behind it.
Different strokes for different folks - I prefer a RWD car in snow.


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They won't make the RWD versions of any RWD car rear weight biased because Corvair. So many people will die, it's just not a predictable handling design.
People misunderstand the issues with the 1st generation Corvair. It didn't go into snap oversteer because it was RWD or because it had a rear weight bias. It went into snap oversteer because it had a poor suspension design. GM was cheap and only put universal joints on the inside of the rear driveshafts so the rear wheels didn't stay flat on the ground when the rear suspension articulated up and down. That caused the rear contact patch to decrease in size and the the rear to lose grip. GM fixed this on the 2nd generation - before "Unsafe At Any Speed" was published. The top is 1st gen the bottom is 2nd gen




Lots of cars have been sold with rear weight bias since Nader's book helped killed off the Corvair. On opposite ends of the spectrum are the VW Beetle and Porsche 911.

Rear weight bias is especially common on performance cars as the idea ratio is between 45/55 and 40/60.

Rear bias doesn't only help during acceleration is also helps braking because hard braking shifts weight forward and helps load the tires more equally than a front biased cars which overload the front tires under braking.

Every RWD electric car I looked at has a rear weight bias:

48% Front / 52% Rear BMW i3 BEV
45% Front / 55% Rear BMW i3 REX
48% Front / 52% Rear Tesla Model S
47% Front / 53% Rear Tesla Model 3
49% Front / 51% Rear Tesla Model X
46% Front / 54% Rear Tesla Model Y
49% Front / 51% Rear Porsche Taycan

VW made the MEB platform standard RWD because it improves vehicle handling dynamics with no cost or packaging penalties.

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why I really came here was to say the first year ID4 sold out in just a few hours so that's a good sign.
That's cool. How many reservations did they book?

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Old 09-26-2020, 08:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
GM fixed this on the 2nd generation - before "Unsafe At Any Speed" was published.
Grinds my gears.



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Old 09-27-2020, 01:18 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I'll have to give the ID4 a look if it's going to be that affordable in Oregon.

All I know is the VW bug liked to swap ends when heavy braking on loose stuff.

Neil seemed to have a fondness for the VW Golf EV. I appreciated the many regen modes including true coast mode.
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Old 09-27-2020, 11:45 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
All I know is the VW bug liked to swap ends when heavy braking on loose stuff.
Bugs didn't generally need a reason to swap ends. Pretty much any loss of traction was the start front or rear
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:08 PM   #18 (permalink)
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without rear bias this would not be as fun
Edit: changed video to Cold Balls 2017
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Old 09-27-2020, 12:40 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
I'll have to give the ID4 a look if it's going to be that affordable in Oregon.

All I know is the VW bug liked to swap ends when heavy braking on loose stuff.

Neil seemed to have a fondness for the VW Golf EV. I appreciated the many regen modes including true coast mode.

Bugs are about 35 / 65 Front to Rear bias, with a lot of weight behind the rear axle to act as a pendulum and cheap swing axle suspensions like the first generation Corvair. Basically NOTHING like a modern EV.

RWD EVs have modern multi-link suspensions combined with a low center of gravity and the weight centered between the axles. For a modern gas car with these characteristics think of the Porsche Cayman
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Old 09-27-2020, 01:13 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quoth DDG:
Quote:
TheSamba.com :: Beetle - 1958-1967 - View topic - Weight ...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/vi...c.php?t=317821
Elfrink also says the Bug oversteers, not because of rear weight bias as is commonly believed, but due to the rear's narrow track, positive camber, high roll center, and stiff rear springs. The '67 Bug, with its rear's wider track, softer springs and negative camber, was much better handling, and the IRS cars even better than that.
They adapt well to tuning. For instance, my Type I panel van weighed about as much as a Beetle but the weight was lower than a windowed (and upholstered) bus and about 50-50. It had 14x4.5 wheels in front and 15x8 in back. 1 1/8th inch sway bar in back, none in front. De-cambered rear. Gas pressurized shocks.

Never rolled it once, but not for trying.

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