Would double battery = double mileage?

[Frank Lee]

What, you couldn't find a bigger pic (of whatever it is?) I'm on dial up for god's sake!

If it's a pic of an Ecomobile I'd say YAH! I want that to be my next vehicle!!!

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

Kinda of a long route to just one example:

I'm afraid you misunderstood.

It is not that one specific vehicle is always more efficient than the Prius under all conditions ... real world isn't that easy ... it depends on the context ... it is the context that was my example , not the vehicle itself.

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

So let's see how it stands. Looking at payload passenger and cargo cubic feet mile per gallon:

Those are some nice add on qualifiers and limitations you are now adding in.

Which is exactly the kind of thing I was trying to tell you from the beginning you would have to do to make your statement correct... unfortunately you will still need more qualifications and more limitation than just that to be correct.

Now looking at vehicles from this niche perspective of passenger efficiency , when you assume the vehicle is always being used exclusively to carry 100% of it's maximum number of passengers... that is a good perspective to use for a pro Prius argument... but not good enough for the Prius to have 'unmatched efficiency'.

Using the same logic ... the Hybrid Orion VII Passenger Bus that gets ~3.5 MPG and carries 44 passengers , also is more efficient than the Prius... and would be more efficient for your evacuation example context as well.

- - - - - - -

Unfortunately ... it is not relevant to me ... I drive 90% of the time just me 1 person and some cargo ... Insight is fine ... and in that context Insight is still more efficient than the Prius ... the remaining 9% it is just me and my wife 2 people + cargo ... Insight still better... I don't need more than 2 passengers often enough for the Prius to even equal the efficiency of the Insight ... of course others will vary ... and have different needs in different contexts... which is why I am curious what specific limited context you have in mind where the Prius actually has 'unmatched efficiency'.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

I would be more impressed if you had bothered to post an example:

Gee, I'm sorry about that, but I just didn't have time to get my personal 747 out of the hanger, plug in some instrumentation, and take it for a test spin. (\sarcasm)

Nor do I fly commercial any more, since there's no place an airline could take me that's worth the discomfort & aggravation embodied in flying these days, so I can't plug in figures for some trip of my own. But numbers are readily findable with a quick search.

Excellent point, let's look at the respective specifications:

You misunderstand my question. I'm simply wondering about drivetrain efficiency - from engine to road - of Prius vs Insight, and of IMA vs HSD.

I already know the answer for overall efficiency, at least in my application: Prius drivers seem to get around 50-60 mpg, I get over 70 in the Insight.

[bwilson4web]

Sorry James and Iamiam,

You may want to read the Wiki definition:
Fuel efficiency in transportation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There you will find the "passenger miles/gallon" which really doesn't care about any individual load factor but is an intrinsic measure of an airplane's efficiency. How much is stuffed in a plane or car is the uncontrolled variable so for any given car:

• How many jockeys?
• How many NBA players?
• How many undergraduates?
• How many circus clowns?
• How many autopilots?

The load is just another way, a variable way, to bias an efficiency 'claim.' It is not intrinsic to the vehicle but something chosen, a 'special pleadings' and often amusing.


In contrast, the passenger and cargo space is fixed and can be measured for each vehicle. The distance traveled can also be measured. The fuel consumed is also measured. Whether or not one uses all of the payload capacity is not relevant as the vehicle is sold to meet the owner's requirements. It is also why a vehicle too small has difficulty being sold in large numbers.

So last week, my Prius was much more efficient than any Insight because I had a spare door in the rear seat. It took all of the three passenger seat space as I was looking for a shop to install it. So that loading was the equivalent to one driver and three passengers, the rear seat area. Do you agree?

Let me put it this way, I would be happy to carry a large box in the passenger seat and three large boxes in the rear seat. Ok, let's make them inflated beach balls (or inflated mannequins.) With the driver, I now have five seats worth of payload and fully exceed the efficiency of the Insight. Would you agree?

Trying to use the load is called a 'special pleadings' and has nothing to do with the vehicle efficiency:

(output) / (input)

output - passenger and cargo volume miles
input - fuel consumed

NOTE: efficiency could be expanded to include time, another input.

Bob Wilson

ps. I see inflatable display mannequinns on Ebay for $10/each. So for $40 my Prius suddenly becomes more efficient than the Insight. <GRINS>

[Frank Lee]

Bob, you do realize that this is getting ridiculous.

[dcb]

I've had to abandon it as every response is a smokescreen of cryptic graphs of questionable origin and another half truth-half opinion-half lies prius biased infomercial, holding the responders to a higher standard than himself.

I think in the matter of priui at 80mph, that toyota has made some improvement, but the important thing is that your average hypermiler can do even better at far less cost with aeromods and other changes. This forum is about modding for economy/ecology, not worshipping priuses that have no mods.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

Sorry James and Iamiam,

You may want to read the Wiki definition:
Fuel efficiency in transportation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nothing new there.

Except more information about vehicles that in a specific context are more efficient than the Prius... perhaps you should have read it closer.

Prius with 5 seats even at ~50 MPG = ~250 passenger MPG

from your own citation:

A diesel bus commuter service in Santa Barbara, California, USA, found average diesel bus efficiency of 6.0 mpg-US (39 L/100 km; 7.2 mpg-imp) (using MCI 102DL3 buses). With all 55 seats filled this equates to 330 passenger-mpg

= more efficient than Prius.

Your own citation lists walking as:

roughly 360 MPG

= also more efficient than Prius.

And just to drop the hammer ...
Also from your own citation:

Association of American Railroads USA 2007 436 mi/gal (166 km/l)/short ton (907.2 kg)

= more efficient than Prius.... a short ton of people is a lot of people... at even 100kg per person ... that is 9 people * 436 = 3,924 passenger miles per gallon ... for a 5 seat Prius to beat that ... means the Prius with 5 passengers in it needs to achieve better than ~784 MPG ... sorry dude ... I know you are pro Prius ... but that is just ...
not going to happen.

[bwilson4web]

Hi folks,

Originally Posted by IamIan

. . .
Nothing new there.

Except more information about vehicles that in a specific context are more efficient than the Prius... perhaps you should have read it closer.

Prius with 5 seats even at ~50 MPG = ~250 passenger MPG

= more efficient than Prius.

= also more efficient than Prius.

= more efficient than Prius.... a short ton of people is a lot of people... at even 100kg per person ... that is 9 people * 436 = 3,924 passenger miles per gallon ... for a 5 seat Prius to beat that ... means the Prius with 5 passengers in it needs to achieve better than ~784 MPG ... sorry dude ... I know you are pro Prius . . .

If you agree with those citations, so too do I. <GRINS> It is a fundamental definition of efficiency. You might not like how we got here but I'm very happy with it . . . what ever it takes to swing a 'clue by four.'

BTW, I'm only 'pro' engineering and accuracy. If it happens to be the Prius, good. But I also like the latest Honda Insight and Ford is doing some notable work. Heck, even GM s*ck's less. What I'm seeing in the 2011 and 2012 models is radically different from what we saw before. By no means perfect, it raises the bar.

Originally Posted by dcb

. . . This forum is about modding for economy/ecology, not worshipping priuses that have no mods.

Only my wife's Prius is stock since it is still under warranty. My NHW11 commuting car continues to be my test item:

• oversized front tires - reduced rolling drag and improved steering
• thinner transaxle lubricant - reduced rolling resistance
• engine oil test - boron CLS, not effective, interesting 4-6 micron particle drag effects
• four-wheel alignment - reduced tire wear
• NHW20 modules - lower internal resistance
• house AC power from Prius - 1kW, 12V DC system today, larger is planned
• exploiting early warm-up, EV mode - ability to reach 35 mph by exploiting Prius control law
• thermistor hack - retrofits NHW20 warm-up profile into NHW11 model
• 2" receiver hitch and trailer - for over-sized loads
• backup camera, GPS and rear-view mirror - safety when backing into a spot to exploit the warm-up EV mode

So yes I do experiment with my NHW11 and we can find plenty of threads that touch on similar experiments with other cars. As you might have noticed, I prefer to measure what is going on, all aspects of what is going on, based upon fundamental laws of physics and engineering. My only competition is the 2nd Law even though I know it always wins.

Going back to my wife's stock Prius, I am conducting an accelerated, transaxle oil change program. It was changed at 5,000 miles and soon will be changed at 20,000 miles. Based upon those oil test results, I may elect to have it changed at 30, 40, 50 or 60,000 miles. This is a much faster change rate than the normal Toyota service intervals. It is less of a modification as an experiment to determine if there is merit in a faster than recommended, transaxle oil change cycle.

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Bob, you do realize that this is getting ridiculous.

No better nor worse than many other discussions. But yes, I do enjoy having fun with those who take what we do a little too seriously or take cheap shots. Poking fun is a two-way street, right?

Tonight, once it cools down a bit, I'll take an oscope out and probe an interesting signal that I've not been able to decode, yet. Once figured out, we'll know if two other Prius with a work-around, interlock problem can be made to work 'normally' instead of showing a master-fault that requires a double-start, workaround. It potentially returns two, 50 MPG vehicles to service not unlike some of the Insight threads have been reporting.

Also today, I reinstalled the Graham miniscanner and programmed it to record:

• MG1 torque - that is 28% of the ICE torque and used to calculate energy flow
• MG2 torque - used to calculate MG2 energy flow
• ICE MAF flow - used to calculate fuel flow to calculate BSFC in operation and indicated and true MPG
• MG1 rpm - used to calculate MG1 power
• MG2 rpm - used to calculate MG2 power and in combination with MG1 rpm, the ICE rpm
• traction battery current - used to calculate traction battery energy flow
• parallel GPS tracking - recording true velocity and altitude, total mechanical energy

So with this data we'll be able to measure, not speculate or poorly quote others who should have known better. We'll have a 'teachable moment' which sad to say is not always a 'learning' moment.

Bob Wilson

[dcb]

using palmearlogic, like saying skeptics said the bumblebee couldn't fly, costs you severley in credibility. Focusing only on the prius and making claims relative to everything else defies logic.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

Sorry James and Iamiam,

You may want to read the Wiki definition:
Fuel efficiency in transportation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But again, my question wasn't about overall passenger mpg efficiency, it was about the relative mechanical/electrical efficiency of the mechanism(s) between the engine and the wheels of the Prius and Insight.

Or even between the gas pump and the wheels: is the Prius Atcheson-cycle engine more or less efficient than the Insight's lean burn?