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Old 03-19-2016, 12:12 AM   #41 (permalink)
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So I should instead believe a book by some idiot who lost billions trying to build cars?
I have no dog in this fight, just wanted to say that the book is pretty good. It's impossible to know exactly how much in it is true, but much of it matches up with another book I've read about GM.

Have I ordered a car? No. Would I? I rather like the idea, but only if there's some sort of custom add-on package that I want.

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Old 03-19-2016, 10:15 AM   #42 (permalink)
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So I should instead believe a book by some idiot who lost billions trying to build cars?
yeah.....about that comment 'some idiot'.........

wish all the 'idiots' in the world had a bio that looked like this.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_DeLorean

DeLorean attended Detroit's public grade schools, and was then accepted into Cass Technical High School, a technical high school for Detroit's honor students, where he signed up for the electrical curriculum. His academic record and musical talents earned him a scholarship at Lawrence Institute of Technology (now known as Lawrence Technological University), a small Detroit college that was the alma mater of some of the automobile industry's best engineers.[11] At Lawrence, he excelled in the study of industrial engineering, and was elected to the school's honor society.[citation needed]
While back in college, he worked part-time at Chrysler and at a local body shop, foreshadowing his later contributions to the automotive industry. DeLorean graduated in 1948 with a Bachelor of Science degree in Industrial Engineering.[citation needed]
Instead of entering the engineering workforce after earning his degree, DeLorean sold life insurance whereby he developed an analytical system aimed at engineers and sold "about $850,000 worth of policies in ten months".[12] Once he had a grasp on soft skills he found the work to be boring and moved onto work for the Factory Equipment Corporation. DeLorean states in his autobiography that he sold life insurance to improve his communications skills.[13] Both endeavors were successful financially, but these areas held little interest for DeLorean
In 1952, DeLorean graduated from the Chrysler Institute with a master's degree in Automotive Engineering and joined Chrysler's engineering team. DeLorean attended night classes at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business to earn credits for his MBA degree, which he completed in 1957.[citation needed]
DeLorean's time at Chrysler lasted less than a year, ending when he was offered a US$14,000 salary at Packard Motor Company under supervision of noted engineer Forest McFarland. DeLorean quickly gained the attention of his new employer with an improvement to the Ultramatic automatic transmission, giving it an improved torque converter and dual drive ranges; it was launched as the "Twin-Ultramatic".[14]Packard was experiencing financial difficulties when DeLorean joined, because of the changing post-WWII automotive market. While Ford, General Motors, and Chrysler had begun producing affordable mainstream products designed to cater to the rising postwar middle class, Packard clung to their pre-World War II era notions of high-end, precisely engineered luxury cars. This exclusive philosophy was to take its toll on profitability. However, it proved to have a positive effect on DeLorean's attention to engineering detail, and after four years at Packard he became McFarland's successor as head of research and development.[15]While still a profitable company, Packard suffered alongside other independents as it struggled to compete when Ford and General Motors engaged in a price war.[16] James Nance, President of Packard, decided to merge the company with Studebaker Corporation in 1954.[16] A subsequent proposed merger with American Motors Corporation never passed the discussion phase.[16] DeLorean considered keeping his job and moving to Studebaker headquarters in South Bend, Indiana, when he received a call from Oliver K. Kelley, vice president of engineering at General Motors, a man whom DeLorean greatly admired. Kelley called to offer DeLorean his choice of jobs in five divisions of GM.[17]
Pontiac[edit]
In 1956 DeLorean accepted a $16,000 salary offer with a bonus program, choosing to work at GM's Pontiac division as an assistant to chief engineer Pete Estes and general manager Semon "Bunkie" Knudsen. Knudsen was the son of the former president of GM, William Knudsen, who was called away from his post to head the war mobilization production effort at the request of President Roosevelt.[17][B] Knudsen was also a MIT engineering graduate, and at 42 he was the youngest man to head a division of GM. [/B](remember this sentence)DeLorean and Knudsen quickly became close friends, and DeLorean eventually cited Knudsen as a major influence and mentor. DeLorean's years of engineering at Pontiac were highly successful, producing dozens of patented innovations for the company, and in 1961 he was promoted to the position of division chief engineer.

DeLorean's best-known contribution to Pontiac was the Pontiac GTO, widely considered the first muscle car.
DeLorean's most notable contribution to Pontiac was the Pontiac GTO (Gran Turismo Omologato), a muscle car named after the Ferrari 250 GTO. It evolved because after the internal GM ban on racing (January 1963) which Pontiac had used racing to propel itself into the # 3 sales slot was taken away. Pontiac was forced to take its efforts off the track and put it on the street to maintain its # 3 position. The result was the GTO. The GTO debuted as a Tempest/LeMans option package with a larger, more powerful engine in 1964. This marked the beginning of Pontiac's renaissance as GM's performance division instead of its previous position as a slightly bigger Chevrolet with no clear brand identity.
From its launch in 1964, sales of the car and its popularity continued to grow dramatically in the following years. DeLorean received almost total credit for the success of the "first muscle car", singularly responsible for conceptualizing, engineering, and the marketing – becoming the singular golden boy of Pontiac, and was rewarded with his 1965 promotion to head the entire Pontiac division.
At the age of 40, DeLorean had broken the record for youngest division head at GM, and was determined to continue his string of successes

Yep...this guy is an IDIOT!!!

. In response to the "pony car" market dominated by the wildly successful Ford Mustang, DeLorean turned to the 14th Floor for permission to offer a smaller version of the Pontiac Banshee Show car for 1966. DeLorean's version was rejected because of GM's concern that his design would take away sales from the Corvette, their flagship performance vehicle, so instead they forced him to work with the existing Camaro design. He could only make changes to the front and rear of the car and even had to use the same fenders. Suspension was a whole different story as the Firebird has front and rear suspension differences compared to Camaro. The vehicle, the Pontiac Firebird, introduced for the 1967 model year became even more popular throughout the 70s.
Shortly after the Firebird's introduction, DeLorean turned his attention to development of an all-new Grand Prix, the division's personal luxury car based on the full sized Pontiac line since 1962. Sales were sagging by this time however, but the new for 1969 model would have its own distinct body shell with drivetrain and chassis components from the intermediate-sized Pontiac A-body (Tempest, LeMans, GTO). Delorean knew Pontiac Division couldn't finance the new car alone so Delorean went to his former boss Pete Estes and asked to share the cost of development with Pontiac having a one-year exclusivity before Chevrolet would release the 1970 Monte Carlo. The deal was done. The 1969 Pontiac Grand Prix looked a lot like a slightly scaled down Cadillac Eldorado with its razor-sharp bodylines and a 6-foot-long (1.8 m) hood. Inside was a sporty and luxurious interior highlighted by a wraparound cockpit-style instrument panel, bucket seats and center console. The new model offered a sportier, high performance, somewhat smaller and lower-priced alternative to the other personal luxury cars then on the market such as the Ford Thunderbird, Buick Riviera, Lincoln Continental Mark III, and Oldsmobile Toronado. The 1969 Grand Prix production ended up at over 112,000 units, far higher than the 32,000 1968 Grand Prix built from the full-sized Pontiac body.

Ralph Nader's book, Unsafe at Any Speed, published in 1965, criticized a number of Detroit automobiles as poorly designed for safety concerns, including the Chevrolet Corvair model. Even as General Motors experienced revenue declines, Pontiac remained highly profitable under DeLorean, and despite his growing reputation as a corporate maverick, on February 15, 1969 he was again promoted. This time it was to head up the prestigious Chevrolet division, General Motors' flagship marque.
Chevrolet[edit]

The 1970 Chevrolet Nova was released behind schedule under DeLorean's leadership of GM's Chevrolet division.
By this time, DeLorean commanded an annual salary of $200,000, with yearly bonuses of up to $400,000.
The executive offices of General Motors headquarters continued to clash with DeLorean's nonconformity, and he was still not able to fit the traditional mold of conservatism that was usually expected of someone of his stature. When John was appointed, Chevrolet was having financial and organizational troubles, and GM president Ed Cole needed a first-class manager in that position to sort things out – company man or not. The new model Camaro was due out for the 1970 model year, and it was rapidly falling behind schedule. Redesigns for the Corvette and Nova were also delayed, and unit sales had still not recovered from the past four years of turmoil, much of that because of the bad publicity surrounding the Corvair and well-publicized quality-control issues affecting other Chevy models, including defective motor mounts that led to an unprecedented recall of 6.7 million Chevrolets built between 1965 and 1969. DeLorean responded to the production problems by delaying the release of the Camaro, and simplifying the modifications to the Corvette and Nova. He used the extra time to streamline Chevrolet's production overhead and reduce assembly costs. By 1971, Chevrolet was experiencing record sales in excess of 3 million vehicles, and his division alone was nearly matching that of the entire Ford Motor Company. Another promotion was imminent for DeLorean.
In 1972, DeLorean was appointed to the position of vice president of car and truck production for the entire General Motors line, and his eventual rise to president seemed inevitable. However, the idea of him assuming that position was almost intolerable to GM executives, and on April 2, 1973, he announced that he was leaving the company, telling the press "I want to do things in the social area. I have to do them, and unfortunately the nature of our business just didn't permit me to do as much as I wanted." although it was rumored that he had been fired. GM gave him a Florida Cadillac franchise as a retirement gift, and DeLorean did in fact take over the presidency of The National Alliance of Businessmen, a charitable organization with the mission of employing Americans in need, founded by Lyndon Johnson and Henry Ford. GM was a major contributor to the group, and agreed to continue his salary while he remained president of NAB. DeLorean was sharply critical of the direction GM had taken by the start of the 1970s, saying "There's no forward response at General Motors to what the public wants today." He also objected to the idea of using rebates to sell cars on the grounds that "A car should make people's eyes light up when they step into the showroom. Rebates are merely a way of convincing customers to buy bland cars they're not interested in."

Yeah I have left out the years after retiring and the delorean motor company.
Just wanted to show what an idiot looks like in his early career......
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Old 03-19-2016, 05:43 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Knudsen was the son of the former president of GM, William Knudsen... DeLorean and Knudsen quickly became close friends, and DeLorean eventually cited Knudsen as a major influence and mentor.
Ah, the old "it's not what you know, but who you know" principle.

Quote:
Just wanted to show what an idiot looks like in his early career...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

I'm perhaps a bit prejudiced, since my family had a bunch of those GM cars from the years when DeLorean was influential in management. There was the '55 Chevy with the shift linkage that'd get stuck between gears, the '59 with 2 foot tailfins, the '65 Nova witha a front control arm that fell off while I was driving it, the mid-70s Vega which, in addition to all its other faults, had a shift linkage that'd get stuck between gears... There's a reason I haven't bought an American car since that Vega.
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Old 03-19-2016, 06:01 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Ah, the old "it's not what you know, but who you know" principle.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

I'm perhaps a bit prejudiced, since my family had a bunch of those GM cars from the years when DeLorean was influential in management. There was the '55 Chevy with the shift linkage that'd get stuck between gears, the '59 with 2 foot tailfins, the '65 Nova witha a front control arm that fell off while I was driving it, the mid-70s Vega which, in addition to all its other faults, had a shift linkage that'd get stuck between gears... There's a reason I haven't bought an American car since that Vega.
Could I interest you in a 'new' Irish-made, but USA-assembled, DeLorean (wink,wink)?
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Old 03-20-2016, 03:52 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I had breakfast with grandpa the other day and asked him what his federal tax liability was. At $12k, I told him he qualified for the full $7,500 rebate on the Chevy Volt.

He seems interested, but it would come down to being easy enough to get in and out of. I'll see if I can get a dealer to show him one.
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Old 03-20-2016, 05:40 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I'm very impressed with Mr. DeLorean's credentials. Thank you mcrews for the entry. That was a very good read.[/I]
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Old 03-20-2016, 09:54 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I'm very impressed with Mr. DeLorean's credentials. Thank you mcrews for the entry. That was a very good read.[/I]
I knew of him during the 80s but did not know of his complete history.
Yeah, pretty impressive.....
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Old 03-21-2016, 08:53 AM   #48 (permalink)
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yeah.....about that comment 'some idiot'.........

wish all the 'idiots' in the world had a bio that looked like this.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_DeLorean
I'll go with idiot savant. Supremely skilled when playing with numbers, but not smart enough to say no to financing a coke smuggling operation.

Yes, he was found not guilty because it was entrapment (an informant wanted to give the feds something to reduce his own sentence and knew DeLorean needed money so he offered to let him in on it). But yes, he still went for it.

If your car company needs a shot of cash and smuggling coke seems like the solution...
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:48 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Chevy Volts look very enticing these days. With the fed rebate I think buying new makes a heck of a lot of sense, particularly for someone who intends to keep the car for the long term.

I bought three new cars, a Subaru Legacy, STi, and Honda Fit.

The Legacy cost me ~$23K. They shipped the Legacy in from another dealer because of my desired "options" (no leather, manual gearbox, no stupid wing on trunk). It went through 175K miles and two family members before bringing $5K at trade-in. I probably could have gotten better TCO buying used.

The STi was ~$30K (after the dealer dropped list price over $5K!!!). STi's had only one trim level then; they did have a couple of options but they were all dealer installed. I got the color I wanted, not much of a big deal really. I drove it 117K trouble-free miles and got over $19K from the insurance company after it was totaled. I'd be stupendously nervous buying a car like an STi used, and they hold their value very well -- so long as they're not hacked up with bad modifications -- so I'm happy with that call from a TCO perspective. Considering how much enjoyment I got from the car I consider it money very well spent.

The Fit had two trim levels at the time and just a few color options. I got the trim level and color I wanted but I did have to wait two weeks for it to be shipped in. I paid $15K, $200 off list price, because gas had just gone to $4/gallon and Fits were very very hot items. The car had also been introduced in the US just the year before so used Fits were almost nonexistent. I drove it 100K miles and got $9500 from the insurance company after it was hailed to smithereens. Again no complaints in terms of TCO, or anything else for that matter; the car was dead reliable and a hoot to drive. It literally paid for itself in fuel savings compared to the STi. I would not hesitate to buy a used Fit but they hold their price so well that a new one may make just as much sense.

My Taco was bought used. I very nearly gave up trying to find a used one. They are the second highest vehicle in the US for resale value, so the used ones I found were only slightly less expensive than new or else had a bazillion miles on them. I wanted 4wd, v6, auto, tow package, so I was fairly fussy in terms of some options; color, trim level, not so much. I finally found one with 24K miles at $5K less than new price, and snapped it up. I'll have to let you know later how the TCO worked out. To be honest I have no plans of ever selling it so you may have to check with my heirs.

Last edited by wdb; 03-21-2016 at 11:55 AM..
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:56 AM   #50 (permalink)
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To be honest I have no plans of ever selling it so you may have to check with my heirs.
Just as a reference point, I bought my '88 five or six years ago. Paid $2700, and got $1100 for my old '84 (carb) that I couldn't get to pass smog in this county. Still going strong (though I did have to replace a radiator cap this year :-(), so the heir thing applies to me too.

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