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Come on guys, keep it civil.
The fun of a place like a web forum is our ability to share info, bounce ideas off each other, etc.
A simple rule of thumb in debates is to question concepts NOT the person presenting them.
Roflwaffle - thank you for having a link to some more info on embedded energy. It's a really interesting topic, but I haven't seen any solid numbers before.
I do know that replacing a household refridgerator after only about 10 years or so has been a popular thing to do lately. Apparently, compressors and other components in a new fridge are efficient enough that it makes sense to get a new one to save the money on your electric bill. A fridge is also a relatively simple thing to manufacture.
Accounting for the energy to manufacture a car gets much more complicated - electronics, copper, motors, batteries, etc.
I think it's interesting that Wikipedia lists the embodied energy of aluminum as SIGNIFICANTLY greater than steel and other materials. Many EVs and Hybrids use aluminum as a way to save weight.
One more reason to make sure to recycle your cans!
I am glad to see that more and more recycled materials are used in new products (including cars) nowadays.
Lets say theoretically that you were looking at purchasing one of two new cars. Both take a certain amount of embodied energy - we don't know exactly what it is, but lets say it's more for a "high-tech" plug-in hybrid, than for a competing "low-tech" gasoline engine car.
Even after both vehicles have "paid back" their embodied energy (with the high-tech car taking longer) you still have the ability to control WHERE the energy to fuel the Plug-In Hybrid's electricity comes from.
That energy could be from natural gas, wind, solar or other clean/cleaner technologies. The gas car still runs on gasoline - which only comes from oil.
Also, the energy for manufacturing comes from a number of sources, coal, nuclear, natural gas, etc, so you also really can't exactly compare those energies to that of gasoline to run the finished car either.
My thought: We all need to save energy where ever we can. I like used vehicles because they are already built. The embodied energy is already there. For a new car, it has to be built. The materials and energy need to get used to make the thing.
Of course, without NEW cars, there would never be USED cars.
Now if we could all just run the existing cars we have right now FOREVER, that would be something.
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