Just rode in a VOLT!

[gone-ot]

...old farm-hands' and machinists' motto: "...maintain your TOOLS and they will maintain YOU."

...that's why I was able to drive my '84 Honda DX for 15 years, and the '72 Pinto before it for 12 years.

[NHRABill]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

Bullsheeet Billy! Bullsheeet! I never said a car used no energy to make, I just said it would probably use less than it takes to fuel your chebby.

On average the embodied energy of a car is something like 72,000kWh give or take. A gallon of gas is ~37kWh, so you would need to use ~2,000 gallons of gas less to cover the energy costs of a brand new automobile, probably less, ~1,000+ gallons for a smaller new car, which is ~30k miles of driving in your chebby. Besides, if you're really worried about it that much then go fix up a used fuel efficient car and use that. It's already been built.

Bullsheeet Billy! Bulsheeet! I never said I wanted to be responsible. I just said I'm tired of the Bullsheeet from people like you. You aren't using any less energy by driving your chebby instead of a used fuel efficient car, and you probably aren't saving energy versus a new compact car unless you drive you guzzlers less than 30k miles over the entire time you'll own whatever guzzlers you happen to have.

If you like to drive your chebby, then just say so. I don't really give a **** about that. What bugs me is when people make up BS to validate what they're doing.

First off Punk you don't know me so don't act like you do...

Internet trolls who make up numbers and call them facts and turn around and tell people who are trying to improve their habits even in the slightest are what is wrong with the world today. Your comments are your opinion and no matter what anyone says you will cry and say you are correct therefore I wonn't even attept to justify my position in any past comments I have made to you.

You do not know my needs, you do not know my habits, you do not know the dangers of driving a econobox where I live. I appreciate you stop pretending you know what is best for me and taking the conversation from one where people can express their constructive opionions and soiling it with the everyone is wrong but you attitude.

Using insinuated profane language does not work with me. So Grow up and try to understand the world does not revolve around your opinion.

[gone-ot]

...time for a COLD beer....and separate corners everyone.

[bennelson]

Come on guys, keep it civil.

The fun of a place like a web forum is our ability to share info, bounce ideas off each other, etc.

A simple rule of thumb in debates is to question concepts NOT the person presenting them.

Roflwaffle - thank you for having a link to some more info on embedded energy. It's a really interesting topic, but I haven't seen any solid numbers before.

I do know that replacing a household refridgerator after only about 10 years or so has been a popular thing to do lately. Apparently, compressors and other components in a new fridge are efficient enough that it makes sense to get a new one to save the money on your electric bill. A fridge is also a relatively simple thing to manufacture.

Accounting for the energy to manufacture a car gets much more complicated - electronics, copper, motors, batteries, etc.

I think it's interesting that Wikipedia lists the embodied energy of aluminum as SIGNIFICANTLY greater than steel and other materials. Many EVs and Hybrids use aluminum as a way to save weight.

One more reason to make sure to recycle your cans!
I am glad to see that more and more recycled materials are used in new products (including cars) nowadays.

Lets say theoretically that you were looking at purchasing one of two new cars. Both take a certain amount of embodied energy - we don't know exactly what it is, but lets say it's more for a "high-tech" plug-in hybrid, than for a competing "low-tech" gasoline engine car.
Even after both vehicles have "paid back" their embodied energy (with the high-tech car taking longer) you still have the ability to control WHERE the energy to fuel the Plug-In Hybrid's electricity comes from.

That energy could be from natural gas, wind, solar or other clean/cleaner technologies. The gas car still runs on gasoline - which only comes from oil.

Also, the energy for manufacturing comes from a number of sources, coal, nuclear, natural gas, etc, so you also really can't exactly compare those energies to that of gasoline to run the finished car either.

My thought: We all need to save energy where ever we can. I like used vehicles because they are already built. The embodied energy is already there. For a new car, it has to be built. The materials and energy need to get used to make the thing.

Of course, without NEW cars, there would never be USED cars.
Now if we could all just run the existing cars we have right now FOREVER, that would be something.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

Bullsheeet Billy! Bullsheeet! blah blah blah...

And thats where everybody stopped reading.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by bennelson

I like used vehicles because they are already built. The embodied energy is already there. For a new car, it has to be built. The materials and energy need to get used to make the thing.

Don't forget that while continuing to drive old-ish cars, you're polluting way more than with a modern car because older cars' emissions are worse.
(IIRC, an early '90s car is polluting 6 times more than a new car for a given fuel consumption.)

So there definitely is a point where it's really better to recycle the old car for a new(er) one.

[Frank Lee]

I like ultimate recycling i.e. extract the last mile outta that old heap. With only one exception, all my cars have been well used before I got em, and most of them had over 100,000 miles on when I got em. I'm not out to impress anyone on the road so not having the trendy thing bothers me not.

I've found it is just as easy and cheap to do that with an old fuel sipper as it is with an old guzzler.

[MetroMPG]

No more personal jabs or you all get a time out.

(Works on my sister's kids!)

[robchalmers]

I too like the idea of recycling older vehicles - I'm living the dream with an older car BUT. I really not sure about the whole econobox paranoia, I drive a car thats was deemed too small to interest the US consumer, yet. I've rolled one and stuffd on into a unmoveable object and walked away - in fact REBUILT after the latter. I'm not sure what the smaller cars in the US are like but I think you'd be surprised how well an 'econobox' would come off in a crash and how badly an old ladder chassis truck will.

I'd like to prove the safety to you but with out endangering one of us it'd be hard to prove!!!

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by robchalmers

I think you'd be surprised how well an 'econobox' would come off in a crash and how badly an old ladder chassis truck will.

I'd like to prove the safety to you but with out endangering one of us it'd be hard to prove!!!

No need to put yourself in danger, it's (more or less) been done for you

Fifth Gear put a new Renault Modus (2004-present / Nissan Note lookalike) against an old tank, the Volvo 940 (1991–1998).

Fifth Gear – Renault Modus v Volvo 940 Crash Test | You Tube Videos - Collection of Videos from YouTube.


So in addition to polluting more, the older cars are also far less safe.
And that's with a car that was considered very safe in its day.
A lesser or smaller car from that era would be even worse when compared to today's small cars.


Think about how much you really want to risk to get better FE.