BORPower additive?

[Logic]

Originally Posted by freebeard

I guess h-BN/h-BN is that.

Yes.
As stated in the research paper.
I should know by now that no-one ever 'ventures of the reserve' and looks at the links.
I'll start [annotating] the bits I quote.

[freebeard]

My reservation is Youube, I just swing by Ecomodder on my regular rounds.

[Logic]

On the friction and wear performance of boric acid lubricant combinations in extended duration operations
Department of Mechanical Engineering, University of Pittsburgh

[

B]4.4. Transmission fluid with boric acid[/B]
Based on the poor results of the boric acid experiments, the solid lubricant material was physically dissolved without the use of dispersant (5% weight) with the transmission fluid to establish its potential use as an additive in liquid lubricants.
As shown in Figs. 5 and 6, this lubricant combination was found to provide the excellent friction and wear properties as the friction actually decreased over a significant portion of the testing period.
Specifically, as depicted in Fig. 6, the transmission fluid and boric acid had an initial coefficient of friction of 0.08.
This coefficient value gradually decreased to a value of 0.062 at the completion of the sliding experiments, which was 40% less than that obtained in the transmission fluid only experiments.
The comparatively higher initial coefficient of friction values for the transmission fluid and boric acid combination were most likely due to the fact that the boric acid crystals were not evenly distributed within the transmission fluid at the start of experiments.
As shown in Fig. 6, however, it appears that the boric acid became evenly disbursed within the fluid after approximately 100 m of sliding.

Once evenly distributed, the lubricant combination was able to provide a continuous hydrodynamic lift and a low shear resistance within the contact interface to function as an excellent lubricant.
Unlike the independent transmission fluid and boric acid cases, the complimentary properties of the lubricant combination allowed it to withstand significant degradation over time.
https://sci-hub.ru/https://www.scien...43164805004266

Considering the dispersion of the boric acid crystals, the surface tension properties of the transmission fluid help constrain the boric acid powder so that it did not move outside of the contact region.
Likewise, the addition of the solid boric acid particulates into the fluid increased its viscosity, which decreased its displacement outside of the contact interface, reducing its degradation over time.
Hence, placing the boric acid within the transmission fluid allows the system to gain the beneficial properties of both lubricants over the entire testing period.

Along with having the lowest frictional values, the combined boric acid and transmission fluid case also had the best wear resistance of the initial lubricants tested.
In both the profile of the wear track of the disk (Table 1) and the measured wear volume
of pin (Fig. 5 and Table 2), the lubricant combination demonstrated excellent wear behavior.
Considering the profile of the disk wear track, the average (0.162
m) and RMS (0.222
m) surface roughness profile values were the lowest recorded in the
experiments.
This demonstrates that the wear track generated in the presence of the combined lubricant was the most uniform among all the samples tested.
As illustrated in Fig. 9, the low roughness values indicate as the disk asperities were plastically deformed and rounded rather than being sheared-off to form valleys. Considering the wear on the pin, both Fig. 5 and Table 2 indicate that excellent wear resistance was achieved by the combined lubricant.
In fact, the measured wear rate at the completion of the experiments was three times less than that of the transmission fluid alone.

https://sci-hub.ru/https://www.scien...43164805004266
Lots of pictures and graphs to be seen here.


My findings after adding BA to gearboxes:
It worked extremely well.
A, difficult to describe, smoothness due to less vibration and less resistance to gear changing could be felt.

HOWEVER:
Gearboxes rely on syncromeshes (friction clutches) between each gear to get them spinning at the same rate before the gear is engaged, so that they don't grate when the gear is engaged.

These syncromeshes became way less effective due to the dramatic reduction in friction they rely on.
This meant that I had to hold the gear lever against that initial resistance one feels just before the the gear slips into place for much longer.

I put too much in the 1st gearbox I treated, making it close to unusable.
Draining and replacing the gear oil had no, to very little effect.
We opened the gearbox and used valve grinding paste on the syncros.
Then a thorough clean with cloths and a wash out with diesel and much hand turning of the gearbox in each gear.
This fixed it while retaining the said 'smoothness'.

Subsequent gearboxes were treated with way less BA.
IIRC around 2 teaspoons full of powder dissolved in very little water so that around one teaspoon of powder remained undissolved.

Differentials:
Differentials react very well to adding around the same dose as mentioned above IIRC, with a complete cancellation of diff whine in one case.
It took way longer to kick in. A day or 3 IIRC, vs 10 km in engines.

Limited slip differentials, that again rely on friction to limit slip, became waaay less limited...

[aerohead]

You keep adding more elaborate versions of the same falsehood.
The authors are using nomenclature which clearly describe lubrication processes which have absolutely nothing to do with automotive lubrication:
1) 'coefficient of friction '
2) 'sliding friction '
3) 'pin-on-disc' testing
4) 'viscosity increase '
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're to 'help' Ecomodder members and guests, you'd be better off limiting your research automotive tribology, where the challenges lay with 'reduced' viscosity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boron - nitrogen, extreme-pressure, anti-wear agents have been added to motor oil since 1973 ( CHEVRON-TEXACO-CALTEX ), along with Zinc, Sulfur, and Phosphorus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your arbitrary addition of boric acid could threaten the integrity of micro-textured isotropic surfaces which facilitate lubrication.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Falex washer-on-ring superfinish sample testing of coefficient of friction has produced component scuffing failures at 580-rpm ( lower than the 'idle speed' of most automotive engines ).

[Logic]

Originally Posted by aerohead

You keep adding more elaborate versions of the same falsehood.
The authors are using nomenclature which clearly describe lubrication processes which have absolutely nothing to do with automotive lubrication:
1) 'coefficient of friction '
2) 'sliding friction '
3) 'pin-on-disc' testing
4) 'viscosity increase '
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're to 'help' Ecomodder members and guests, you'd be better off limiting your research automotive tribology, where the challenges lay with 'reduced' viscosity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boron - nitrogen, extreme-pressure, anti-wear agents have been added to motor oil since 1973 ( CHEVRON-TEXACO-CALTEX ), along with Zinc, Sulfur, and Phosphorus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your arbitrary addition of boric acid could threaten the integrity of micro-textured isotropic surfaces which facilitate lubrication.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Falex washer-on-ring superfinish sample testing of coefficient of friction has produced component scuffing failures at 580-rpm ( lower than the 'idle speed' of most automotive engines ).

I assume you are not rabidly opposed to ZDDP in motor oil?

IF:

"1) 'coefficient of friction '
3) 'pin-on-disc' testing"
etc
"have absolutely nothing to do with automotive lubrication"

THEN:

Why does one get 10 pages of (mostly research) results from a search for:
decrease in "coefficient of friction" of ZDDP Supplement (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)?

https://www.google.com/search?q=decr...&bih=906&dpr=1

Why are there 7 pages of (mostly research) results for:
"pin on disk" tests for ZDDP Supplement (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22p...&bih=906&dpr=1

Could it be that BEFORE testing things in running engines, tribologists at research institutes first test with the the de facto test equipment found in all such labs?

There are 15 pages of (mostly research) results for:
"pin on disk" test essential initial testing equipment
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22p...&bih=906&dpr=1

IF as you say no one should be testing this in their engines:
WHERE and how would YOU test it with no chance of breaking your daily transport?

I did suggest speaking to your mechanic to find someone who was about to bring in their car to have their old, worn, smokey but otherwise OK engine rebuilt as a means of testing in a real engine with nothing to lose.
I don't recall your your reaction to that?
Most likely ignored? Or rejected for some "certain it wont work" reason?
What was it again?

I have linked tons of peer reviewed, published research pointing to the fact that it is worth trying.
Have you posted one?? Why not?
(IIRC this question got ignored like you have trouble comprehending it!?)

IN OTHER WORDS:
As far as verifiable sources of info on the; 'why try it' vs 'why not' goes:
The score is what?
20+ to 0

Here is what the peer review, before publishing process entails people:
Peer review is the system used to assess the quality of a manuscript before it is published. Independent researchers in the relevant research area assess submitted manuscripts for originality, validity and significance to help editors determine whether a manuscript should be published in their journal.
https://www.biomedcentral.com/getpub...review-process

Peer review is a process used by researchers to evaluate the quality and validity of academic research papers before they are published in a journal. In this process, an author submits their work, which is then evaluated by a panel of experts in the same field, known as peers or referees. These reviewers evaluate the paper based on its scientific quality, novelty, and relevance to the field.
https://www.aje.com/arc/types-of-peer-review/

If anyone looks like they don't know whatTF they are talking about here; it's YOU!
BRING THE RESEARCH!
People are likely wondering if you are capable of such!
You do seem to be having trouble fully reading and comprehending posts like this?

[Logic]

I found this on the US Dept of Energy's website.
NB the URL to the link: https://www.energy.gov

I have posted the 1st couple of pages below.

Here's the link to the complete presentation;
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/fi..._17_fenske.pdf

Parasitic Energy Losses
















Here is another link showing a test engine used in these experiments etc;
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/fi...t08_fenske.pdf

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Logic

I assume you are not rabidly opposed to ZDDP in motor oil?

IF:

"1) 'coefficient of friction '
3) 'pin-on-disc' testing"
etc
"have absolutely nothing to do with automotive lubrication"

THEN:

Why does one get 10 pages of (mostly research) results from a search for:
decrease in "coefficient of friction" of ZDDP Supplement (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)?

https://www.google.com/search?q=decr...&bih=906&dpr=1

Why are there 7 pages of (mostly research) results for:
"pin on disk" tests for ZDDP Supplement (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22p...&bih=906&dpr=1

Could it be that BEFORE testing things in running engines, tribologists at research institutes first test with the the de facto test equipment found in all such labs?

There are 15 pages of (mostly research) results for:
"pin on disk" test essential initial testing equipment
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22p...&bih=906&dpr=1

IF as you say no one should be testing this in their engines:
WHERE and how would YOU test it with no chance of breaking your daily transport?

I did suggest speaking to your mechanic to find someone who was about to bring in their car to have their old, worn, smokey but otherwise OK engine rebuilt as a means of testing in a real engine with nothing to lose.
I don't recall your your reaction to that?
Most likely ignored? Or rejected for some "certain it wont work" reason?
What was it again?

I have linked tons of peer reviewed, published research pointing to the fact that it is worth trying.
Have you posted one?? Why not?
(IIRC this question got ignored like you have trouble comprehending it!?)

IN OTHER WORDS:
As far as verifiable sources of info on the; 'why try it' vs 'why not' goes:
The score is what?
20+ to 0

Here is what the peer review, before publishing process entails people:
Peer review is the system used to assess the quality of a manuscript before it is published. Independent researchers in the relevant research area assess submitted manuscripts for originality, validity and significance to help editors determine whether a manuscript should be published in their journal.
https://www.biomedcentral.com/getpub...review-process

Peer review is a process used by researchers to evaluate the quality and validity of academic research papers before they are published in a journal. In this process, an author submits their work, which is then evaluated by a panel of experts in the same field, known as peers or referees. These reviewers evaluate the paper based on its scientific quality, novelty, and relevance to the field.
https://www.aje.com/arc/types-of-peer-review/

If anyone looks like they don't know whatTF they are talking about here; it's YOU!
BRING THE RESEARCH!
People are likely wondering if you are capable of such!
You do seem to be having trouble fully reading and comprehending posts like this?

So, let's turn things right side up, and look at the fundamentals:
1) Carbon dioxide emissions are driving ( global warming ) climate change.
2) Increasing fuel economy reduces carbon emissions, and by default lowers carbon dioxide emissions .
3) More stringent fuel economy regulations are 'forcing' higher fuel economy requirements, otherwise, automobiles which fail to meet the more stringent standards will not be certified for sale in certain, perhaps, ALL markets.
4) Reducing 'engine friction' is one means of increasing fuel economy without affecting the 'rule of the Paris Dressmakers'.
5) Since 'engine friction' is dominated by engine oil 'VISCOSITY', tribologists have, since 1973's global energy crisis, been working to reduce all lubricant viscosities, without jeopardizing all the other protections lubricants incorporate ( THIS IS WHERE YOU APPEAR TO FAIL TO UNDERSTAND WHAT AUTOMOTIVE LUBRICATION ACTUALLY ENTAILS ).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6) You don't seem to understand :
* Temperature
* Pressure
* Surface distance per unit time domain
* Engineered lubricants that 'ALREADY' satisfy all the 'NEEDS' of extant, mass-produced engine designs which can be 'RUINED' if 'additives' are randomly introduced to an existing motor oil without first investigating the ramifications to all the other chemicals already 'IN' the motor oil
* Nomenclature used by tribologists, which when read by peers would inform them that, they are not reading about 'science' which 'could EVER be' germane to automotive lubrication ( which includes most of your 'supporting scientific evidence )
* Engineered surface finishes and materials technology
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7) It is 'BECAUSE' tribologists want to 'LOWER' viscosity of engine oil, transmission oil, and differential lube, that they 'NEED' to investigate protection 'AGAINST' surface contact ( which does 'NOT' occur inside engines if the viscosity is kept above known thresholds derived under the most extreme SAE, API, ASME, testing protocols which go 'lightyears' beyond the 'pin-on-disc' testing you appear so enamored of.
8) I get that 'something' rudimentary can be experienced with 'pin-on-disc' investigations, but for you to imply that we can accept that data as some sort of analogue to what would be experienced in a 100-hour SAE dynamometer engine test cell under 'road load' conditions constitutes intellectual dishonesty, and a complete disservice to members and guests.
9) Physicist Richard Feynman used to admonish graduate students at CALTECH to hold their tongues ( and pens ) about any ' conclusions or attributions ' about phenomena they experienced, until after they'd made every effort beforehand to find out where they could be wrong about their conclusions.
10)- 'Oiliness' is not important when lubrication is 'perfect', since film lubrication arises mainly from hydrodynamic forces.' PhD Edward F. Obert, Professor of Mechanical Engineering, The University of Wisconsin, author, 'INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES', 44-pages on automotive tribology.
- ' chemically balanced motor oil products receive no benefit from aftermarket additives ', General Motors Research Laboratories
- boric acid suspended in the lubricants,' which do not react with boric acid.' PhD Ari Erdemir, Arch Development Corporation.
11) ' 10 pages', ' 7 pages', ' 15 pages ' :
As I've said, this page fetish is just a more sophisticated version of the same falsehood.
12) Zinc dialkylphosphorodithioate was one of six motor oil additives used in commercial motor oils since at least 1973, along with Boron Nitrogen compounds.
13) If one is going to 'test' an oil additive, they should satisfy all the methodologies and conditions already established in the industry, with all scientific rigor spelled out in the test methodologies, including a pre-test engine teardown with micrometer/Plastigauge measurements, and post-test engine teardown measurements. Otherwise we're just looking at subjective, anecdotal, non-quantitative information which offers no 'proof' ( If you can't measure it you can't improve it ', Lake Speed Jr., Joe Gibbs Racing ( NASCAR )/ LUBRISOL )
14) As to 'old smoky engine' testing, George Soros says he's not interested in underwriting the costs of the investigation on the grounds that internal combustion engines are on the way out, so we'd be addressing a problem that nobody would have in the near future, so it would be 'folly'. Living on Social Security in a county that practices economic rape/sodomy/and cannibalism precludes me as a candidate for 'validating' or 'invalidating' your hypothesis. Nice try!
15) What was is that I didn't comprehend? That you continue to throw stuff at a wall hoping that some of it might stick? I 'know' what automotive tribologists 'do.' When I 'see' something that's 'actionable' to the EcoModder community in what you've shared I'll let you know. You've given us nothing that I can see. If people run the recommended grade of oil in their engine, then, they can expect the vehicle to perform beyond its engineered life expectancy ( I have 719,378-km on my Toyota, and it runs like new ).

[freebeard]

So, let's turn things right side up, and look at the fundamentals:
1) Carbon dioxide emissions are driving ( global warming ) climate change.

Said the flea riding on the back of an elephant, "We're raising quite a dust."

[Piotrsko]

From a divorced position, exactly what is wrong with the flea's observation? Is it not part of the total mass generating the dust, albeit a very small portion unless the flow on the elephant is 100% laminar.

[freebeard]

Which, of course, would be my point.

R.B.Fuller would have you parse any situation into a relevant domain, one too large to be significant and one too small to be significant. Starting with Universe....

Tangentially, I just learned about the Planck Length and the Implicate and Explicate order

Implicate and explicate order
Implicate order and explicate order are ontological concepts for quantum theory coined by theoretical physicist David Bohm during the early 1980s. They are used to describe two different frameworks for understanding the same phenomenon or aspect of reality. Wikipedia