Duracool refrigerant - has anyone tried it?

[Wonderboy]

5 O'Clock Charlie's first and only post so far was a suggestion that I use duracool to recharge my A/C... this stuff looks really...cool (har har)

Has anyone tried this? I'm willing to be the first if no one else has. It seems like a magic bullet.

[5 O'Clock Charlie]

Hello again Wonderboy,

Like I said in your other thread, I've used it successfully and I'm happy with the product. I'm not a company shill or anything, just a customer.

You'll want to know that apparently in the States there is a bit of a controversy as to the safety of using a hydrocarbon based refrigerant in an automotive air conditioning system. Personally I believe its all hype by refrigerant industry folks worried about their jobs/market share etc. But its up to you to decide.

Here's some links for and against:

Hydrocarbon Refrigerants Common Sense

Hydrocarbon Refrigerant - NAT ENERGY RESOURCES PTE LTD

Duracool Refrigerants - Cool Earth Refrigerants Inc. - Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

[Wonderboy]

I got around to reading more about this, and it turns out duracool is illegal to use in the US.

Unacceptable Substitute Refrigerants | Alternatives / SNAP | US EPA

HOWEVER:

There is a very similar hydrocarbon based refrigerant, [HCR-188c] that has been developed by a Hawaiian man and has very recently been approved by the EPA.


Can't wait to get my [strike]hands[/strike] car on some of this stuff.

[tjts1]

I used Duracool on 2 R12 cars. Its extremely efficient and I haven't had to top it off in 3 years.

[NiHaoMike]

I once used ES-22a on a home A/C unit. Works just fine.

[ziddey]

I've got a 1990 vw fox that originally had r12. I didn't get a chance to see the pressure remaining in the system, but it was low enough that the compressor no longer cycled on. I had the system evacuated and it held vacuum. Nothing was ever touched with the ac system. I didn't change any o-rings or the dryer, but just went straight to r134a. I made the mistake of only finger tightening the r134a retrofit valve and by next day, the system was empty. R134a was never that cold, especially at idle. Weak compressor..

I haven't paid attention to the retrofit valve. Is it just metal, or is there a plastic washer in there? Or is that part of the quick connect? Either way, I can't get the quick connect on there anymore, so I'm hoping it's not part of the retrofit valve (since it said that the valve has some sort of adhesive that would make removal "impossible" without breaking the original valve with it).

I'm going to get the system evacuated again.

So at this point, the system has seen r12 and whatever the original oil was as well as r134a and whatever oil that came with (pag I'm imagining). I'm still not going to change the o-rings / dryer (I know I know..). I just got a 12pack of hc12a, which I understand is the same as duracool. I'm a lazy bum, but I recall reading before that duracool/hc12a is an aziotrope? Is this right? It'd definitely suck to have it slow leak and then not be the right proportion anymore.

Does the hc12a bottle come with any oil? If not, what kind of oil should I be using, and how much of it? Is PAG ok? Or should I switch to ester after the evacuation?

Last time I paid a guy $40 to pull vacuum. But I figure maybe it's time to just purchase a vacuum pump. What's a good cheap one to get? I see a lot that are $100. any less than that? I've got harbor freights nearby and hear I should pick one up there.

I'm a big support of duracool based on everything I've read so far. Hopefully that won't change after I try it out. I'm really hoping that the bigger molecules would mean that the system will be problemfree for a long time, even with aged o-rings.

Let's hear some more about duracool

[theunchosen]

There is alot of debate over refrigerants.

The issue is activists got concerned about the damage that something had on the environment. I can understand that. So it got banned. In typical political fashion they did so before actually consulting anyone to decide if it was intelligent.

you can pull any old enthalpy tables and check the differences between 134a 22 and 12 and you'll notice the enthalpy drop from flash vaporization is much greater. You can also talk to the same people who wanted 12 banned and they will tell you 134a is just as bad for the environment. This leaves you with two options 1.) move to Ammonia 2.) take the necessary evil of some pollution for the creature comfort air conditioning.

EU is very likely going to ban 134a and there is not an acceptable replacement on the table for the same reason 12 got kicked.

That said 12 works far more effectively than 134a, which is much more effective than ammonia. If you go to ammonia the creation of pollution your AC created to counteract the less effective cycle(running much harder and faster) you end up with the same pollution and alot less comfort.

[NiHaoMike]

Originally Posted by ziddey

I've got a 1990 vw fox that originally had r12. I didn't get a chance to see the pressure remaining in the system, but it was low enough that the compressor no longer cycled on. I had the system evacuated and it held vacuum. Nothing was ever touched with the ac system. I didn't change any o-rings or the dryer, but just went straight to r134a. I made the mistake of only finger tightening the r134a retrofit valve and by next day, the system was empty. R134a was never that cold, especially at idle. Weak compressor..

I haven't paid attention to the retrofit valve. Is it just metal, or is there a plastic washer in there? Or is that part of the quick connect? Either way, I can't get the quick connect on there anymore, so I'm hoping it's not part of the retrofit valve (since it said that the valve has some sort of adhesive that would make removal "impossible" without breaking the original valve with it).

I'm going to get the system evacuated again.

So at this point, the system has seen r12 and whatever the original oil was as well as r134a and whatever oil that came with (pag I'm imagining). I'm still not going to change the o-rings / dryer (I know I know..). I just got a 12pack of hc12a, which I understand is the same as duracool. I'm a lazy bum, but I recall reading before that duracool/hc12a is an aziotrope? Is this right? It'd definitely suck to have it slow leak and then not be the right proportion anymore.

Does the hc12a bottle come with any oil? If not, what kind of oil should I be using, and how much of it? Is PAG ok? Or should I switch to ester after the evacuation?

Last time I paid a guy $40 to pull vacuum. But I figure maybe it's time to just purchase a vacuum pump. What's a good cheap one to get? I see a lot that are $100. any less than that? I've got harbor freights nearby and hear I should pick one up there.

I'm a big support of duracool based on everything I've read so far. Hopefully that won't change after I try it out. I'm really hoping that the bigger molecules would mean that the system will be problemfree for a long time, even with aged o-rings.

Let's hear some more about duracool

R-12 uses mineral oil and R-134a uses polyol ester. I'm not sure what duracool uses but ES-22a can use all the common HVAC oils. I have never heard of PAG. Is that alkylbenzene?

As for a vacuum pump, take the compressor (and its capacitors and relay) out of a discarded freezer (not a fridge, it must be a freezer as only those are designed to pull to a low pressure). Attach a 1/4" flare to the suction line (leave the discharge line open) and there's your vacuum pump. You'll also need a gauge set if you don't already have one, and a good one will be about $40 from a HVAC supply store. Also get a splitter and two valves if your gauge has only one service connection. (That essentially upgrades the gauge set to one with 2 service connections, for a lot less than buying one with that feature.)

It is recommended to do a "triple evac" by pulling a vacuum for about 3 hours, using a dry, clean gas such as nitrogen or CO2 to break the vacuum (pressurize up to about 150PSI for leak test), pull a vacuum for another 3 hours, break again, pull again, and then proceed to charge up the system. Check subcooling for TXV systems and superheat for capillary tube systems.

It is actually not as hard as it sounds. Ask me for more details. You may also want to check the following link. They mostly deal with air conditioning high end computers but you can learn a lot from them.
Vapor Phase Change Cooling - XtremeSystems Forums

[Wonderboy]

If I could understand the chemical differences between these coolants, that would be a very useful link. I'm sure some of the smarties here can make sense of it. It doesn't have that new HCR-188c (not that I'd expect it to with that coolant being so new), nor does it have the ES-22a NiHaoMike was talking about.... but it's still a relevant stack of info. Thanks for posting this!

[frigeants]

Problem solve for me. Thanks for sharing this.