Engine warm-up FAIL

[Cobb]

I had a 7 mile commute and it took a bit longer for the car to get comfortable. Never considered bundling up in a new car with a fully functional heater.

I tried it in the insight to save heater use for mpg, but windows kept fogging up. Ended up having to run defroster on cold days.

[Grim]

I didn't see a single person mention this little tidbit of what really drove that don't warm up statement.

It's not about your car lasting it's about getting that car to operating temp as fast as possible to drop emission levels. The cat will never get to operating temps in a cold climate at cold idle when the engine is running a rich mixture. That statement was EPA driven.

The owners manual on my BMW k1100 motorcycle that's equiped with a Cat point blank warns of damaging the cat by long warm ups before driving.
I wait till I'm up to at least 80f on the scan gage and thn I slowly drive out of my hood Trying to keep the RPMs down while the oil is thick. Thick oil will be bypassing

[wdb]

Wow, folks are all over the map on this cold weather driving stuff. Even on this forum we have people being careful to try and save fuel, yet carrying cases of water around with them everywhere they go.

Here's my addition to the general lore. I 'warm up' my car for 30 seconds to a minute every time I start it. I do this to give lubricants a chance to get everywhere they need to get, and pressure levels to rise a bit, before starting out. I accomplish this by starting the car before buckling up. Get in -> start car -> buckle seatbelt -> put on sunglasses (optional) -> put vehicle in gear. I then drive gently until the vehicle has attained normal operating temps (water temp - my vehicles don't have oil temp gauges).

In really cold weather I give things a bit more time, but for the same reasons. My vehicles sit outside so there are days that they might idle for 5 minutes while I clear the windows. (Mech, car covers are impractical to try and use every day.)

I don't overdress for driving. At my old house and my old job I commuted through a state park / gameland area, with no houses for several miles in any direction. Then I would carry blankets and boots and whatnot, in case I got stranded out there and had to hoof it out. The reality where I live/work now is that I am never going to be more than about 5 minutes away from a house, place of business, or another person in another vehicle, so I'm not going to freeze to death. Plus there is this thing called a cellphone these days.

[Cobb]

It's actually quite the opposite. There are guys on this forum who fail emissions because they do not get enough fuel to the cat to burn the harmful emissions from eco driving. I blow the carbon out of my car at least once a week.

[dirtydave]

Have you personally failed emissions from that Cobb?

[Miller88]

Originally Posted by Grim

I didn't see a single person mention this little tidbit of what really drove that don't warm up statement.

It's not about your car lasting it's about getting that car to operating temp as fast as possible to drop emission levels. The cat will never get to operating temps in a cold climate at cold idle when the engine is running a rich mixture. That statement was EPA driven.

The owners manual on my BMW k1100 motorcycle that's equiped with a Cat point blank warns of damaging the cat by long warm ups before driving.
I wait till I'm up to at least 80f on the scan gage and thn I slowly drive out of my hood Trying to keep the RPMs down while the oil is thick. Thick oil will be bypassing

My (former) '01 Taurus, father's 01 F350 5.4 and my '11 Focus idle at asinine speeds to light the cat off ASAP. They all will shoot to 2500RPM on cold start. When the exhaust fell off the pickup, that thing would wake the dead when it started and idled at 2500RPM.

The Focus and the F350 are manual transmissions, and they'll go along 30, 35 MPH with your foot off the gas in 5th gear until the cat lights off. The most annoying thing is, they refuse to idle below 2500RPM when moving. Makes shifting on a cold morning nearly impossible.

My Taurus would go about 15MPH or so shifting into 2nd and sometimes 3rd with no throttle applied.

My Jeep doesn't do that ... I could see it destroying the cat idling for a long time

Originally Posted by jcp123

Even before I got into fuel economy, I thought it was a bit silly to idle the car to warm up. But then, I did grow up in California.

Back to that t-stat conversation, I did replace the t-stat in my Mom's Mazda3 (Duratec 23). The thermostat was fairly expensive ($30 I think?) but nowhere near $200. Came from AutoZone. It took a bit of hassle, but I was able to replace it without removing anything else at all. Don't fear it!

It's an all-in-one. From Rock Auto, looks like I can get either a 180 or 203 thermostat for $89. I just don't know what is ideal operating temp. I don't want to ruin anything by running it at 203 all the time ...

[Grim]

Originally Posted by Miller88

My (former) '01 Taurus, father's 01 F350 5.4 and my '11 Focus idle at asinine speeds to light the cat off ASAP. They all will shoot to 2500RPM on cold start. When the exhaust fell off the pickup, that thing would wake the dead when it started and idled at 2500RPM.

The Focus and the F350 are manual transmissions, and they'll go along 30, 35 MPH with your foot off the gas in 5th gear until the cat lights off. The most annoying thing is, they refuse to idle below 2500RPM when moving. Makes shifting on a cold morning nearly impossible.

My Taurus would go about 15MPH or so shifting into 2nd and sometimes 3rd with no throttle applied.

My Jeep doesn't do that ... I could see it destroying the cat idling for a long time




It's an all-in-one. From Rock Auto, looks like I can get either a 180 or 203 thermostat for $89. I just don't know what is ideal operating temp. I don't want to ruin anything by running it at 203 all the time ...

My motorcycle has a "choke" lever. It's not really a choke since its fuel injected just BMW reusing the controls that had been in production for years. It's only function is to prop open the throttle bodies and idle it up to 1800 rpm as currently adjusted. It's like nails on a chalk board to me hearing the cold aluminum engine running those RPM's when it's 35f in the morning all to get that CAT hot.

I read about changing Thermostats a lot here and other boards. Other forums (truck, car) always saying to people who are having overheat issues to put in 180f thermostats in place of the factory thermostats with higher rating not realizing most modern fuel injected cars are designed around a 200-215f operating temp. Sometimes a lower temp thermostat actually will let the coolant move too fast and not shed heat in the radiator making them actually run hotter, common problem when taking the thermostat out completely. I often wonder how many cars are failing to stay in closed loop from this.

My land cruiser that I bought in March has me wondering what the PO has put in it for a thermostat. My SG2 is showing 173f on the HWY this time of the year. I'm getting a code on coolant temp but there is a recall for a ECM fault that trips the same code that I need to investigate. Highest I have ever seen was 195f middle of summer here in Atlanta caught in traffic.

[ksa8907]

Originally Posted by Miller88

.... It's an all-in-one. From Rock Auto, looks like I can get either a 180 or 203 thermostat for $89. I just don't know what is ideal operating temp. I don't want to ruin anything by running it at 203 all the time ...

I know its apples to oranges, but a lot of cars wont even turn the fans on until 210-215 degrees.

My old car would happily run between 200 and 220

[jcp123]

Originally Posted by Miller88

My (former) '01 Taurus, father's 01 F350 5.4 and my '11 Focus idle at asinine speeds to light the cat off ASAP. They all will shoot to 2500RPM on cold start. When the exhaust fell off the pickup, that thing would wake the dead when it started and idled at 2500RPM.

The Focus and the F350 are manual transmissions, and they'll go along 30, 35 MPH with your foot off the gas in 5th gear until the cat lights off. The most annoying thing is, they refuse to idle below 2500RPM when moving. Makes shifting on a cold morning nearly impossible.

My Taurus would go about 15MPH or so shifting into 2nd and sometimes 3rd with no throttle applied.

My Jeep doesn't do that ... I could see it destroying the cat idling for a long time.

2500?! Neither of my Foci did anywhere near that, although my SVT did have an annoying habit of not idling down in neutral, even when fully warmed up, until you came to a dead stop. My Toyota is just as bad, even demanding 1000+rpm when ECT is in the 170s. The Jeep doesn't surprise me, Mopars tend to prefer a lower cold idle...my 5.9 Magnum van and my Dad's old 5.2 Magnum Ram cold idled anywhere from 900-1100rpm.

Originally Posted by Miller88

It's an all-in-one. From Rock Auto, looks like I can get either a 180 or 203 thermostat for $89. I just don't know what is ideal operating temp. I don't want to ruin anything by running it at 203 all the time ...

That's awfully expensive...I'd do a bit more shopping, I spent nowhere near that much. I confirmed a $29.99 price for it at AutoZone. I did opt for factory temperature (180) when replacing it.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by wdb

The reality where I live/work now is that I am never going to be more than about 5 minutes away from a house, place of business, or another person in another vehicle, so I'm not going to freeze to death. Plus there is this thing called a cellphone these days.

Well, that's your reality :-) Mine is that I quite frequently am in the mountains or desert, 20+ miles from the nearest house or cell phone tower. The problem is people who come from your reality to mine, but expect it to still be like yours.

As for warming up, my vehicles get the time between starting the engine and letting out the clutch. They're an '88 and '00, and both are still running strong.