Manual trans hybrid idea

[pete c]

Originally Posted by Logic

Here automatic cars are few and far between and unpopular.
Everyone just drives manuals as they have been since they 1st learned to drive and no one evr complains about a manual car being a terrible experience.
So it's...interesting to see them considered a "dreadful commuting experiences"

BYD
Seems to be doing all the things people do or wish for here:
Serial Plug-In Hybrid with direct to ICE top gear.
12 volt battery is lithium.
auto grill shutter.
etc

ICE is 46.6% efficient too.

They probably don't sell any of them in the USA due to import duties and the love of humongous vehicles with 45 liter engines, but worth a look none the less.

I never said driving a good manual can't be done in traffic. I've done plenty.

My point is that a low speed ev is just simpler and wayyyyyyy more efficient.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by pete c

I never said driving a good manual can't be done in traffic. I've done plenty.

My point is that a low speed ev is just simpler and wayyyyyyy more efficient.

The original 2000 Honda Insight can be converted to a full efficiency EV by adding one of the following to existing design
1. Specialty dual clutch transmission
2. Existing design but with a full power full speed Prius Prime dog clutch which would allow the gas engine to be disengaged at will from the ima.

Sadly no one has sourced a Prius Prime dog clutch to test fitment to a G1 but it has been an option for years that was never investigated.

[Isaac Zachary]

Hydraulic motors on the front for up to 95% efficient regen braking.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Hydraulic motors on the front for up to 95% efficient regen braking.

IMHO as pressures build in the storage tank; braking force will increase, but it starts out as nothing when the tank's empty.
So how do hydraulic systems work!??

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

The original 2000 Honda Insight can be converted to a full efficiency EV by adding one of the following to existing design
1. Specialty dual clutch transmission
2. Existing design but with a full power full speed Prius Prime dog clutch which would allow the gas engine to be disengaged at will from the ima.

Sadly no one has sourced a Prius Prime dog clutch to test fitment to a G1 but it has been an option for years that was never investigated.

I did a search but was unable to find what I was looking for. Can you talk more about this?

~

The G1 Insight is a special interest car to me, and as such I follow developments on it pretty closely. On Insight Central, people have discussed options for making it a full efficiency EV. One challenge to reusing any of the existing drivetrain components is that the factory electric motor is connected directly to the crankshaft - they're a single rotating assembly. The motor cannot spin without spinning the crank, and vice versa. To put a clutch between the crankshaft and the motor would require putting a spacer between the two, which then moves everything around in the engine bay. The engine doesn't have much room to slide (looking at it from the front) left, and if it does, your exhaust and possibly some coolant lines won't mate to it anymore. If the transmission slides right, your axles don't fit anymore. These are relatively trivial issues, but on the face of it, for the gains being sought, it appears to be more effort than it's worth, considering what other options exist.

What does appear to be mechanically simple and straightforward - the G1 Insight engine and transmission mount positions, and the bell housing, are identical between every hybrid 1.0, 1.3L and 1.5L from 2000 through to today (2025). Which is to say, you could bolt the CVT from a CR-Z to the engine, and mechanically, everything lines up. Or, you can use the 3rd gen Fit/Jazz hybrid DCT, which has an EV mode. Or, you can use the G3 Insight / 11th gen Civic Hybrid / Clarity / 4th gen Fit / Jazz hybrid "gearbox" and use that. The axles slide into the transmission, the transmission bolts to the engine, and the mounts bolt to the chassis. The challenge becomes electrical.

But then, the stock Insight motor is only 14hp. The Clarity gearbox, for comparison, has a 200hp electric motor, and a clutch that allows disengaging the engine for EV-only operation.

Similarly, the 41% thermally efficient 1.5L in a 2025 Honda bolts directly to the Insight gearbox. Or, any other gearbox in the series.

Any combination of engine and gearbox can be (mechanically) used, and all options other than the manuals and old CVTs have provision for efficient EV-only operation. The "eHEV" gearboxes (if they can be called that) appear on the surface to be the most straightforward. In these, you just have an EV drivetrain, but also with an input shaft and clutch that allows an engine to add power to the system as desired. Turn the engine on and drive clutch to the wheels 1:1 in parallel to the 200hp electric motor. Or, toggle the engine on and off whenever to spin the generator and fill the batteries.








Honda is not unique in this implementation. It's the classic "series hybrid". Nissan uses something similar in nearly all of their hybrids, but they do away with the clutch and engine connection entirely. You have what is essentially a Leaf drivetrain, but there also happens to be a combustion engine and generator somewhere in the chassis that can add to the battery.

[freebeard]

So-- 21st Century hot rodding is swapping transmissions instead of engines? (I know they do both both then and now)

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by freebeard

So-- 21st Century hot rodding is swapping transmissions instead of engines? (I know they do both both then and now)

Apparently, yes. The gasoline engine, in many cases, is equivalent to what a fuel tank was in the 20th century.

[Logic]

Originally Posted by Ecky

I did a search but was unable to find what I was looking for. Can you talk more about this?

~

The G1 Insight is a special interest car to me, and as such I follow developments on it pretty closely. On Insight Central, people have discussed options for making it a full efficiency EV. One challenge to reusing any of the existing drivetrain components is that the factory electric motor is connected directly to the crankshaft - they're a single rotating assembly. The motor cannot spin without spinning the crank, and vice versa. To put a clutch between the crankshaft and the motor would require putting a spacer between the two, which then moves everything around in the engine bay. The engine doesn't have much room to slide (looking at it from the front) left, and if it does, your exhaust and possibly some coolant lines won't mate to it anymore. If the transmission slides right, your axles don't fit anymore. These are relatively trivial issues, but on the face of it, for the gains being sought, it appears to be more effort than it's worth, considering what other options exist.

What does appear to be mechanically simple and straightforward - the G1 Insight engine and transmission mount positions, and the bell housing, are identical between every hybrid 1.0, 1.3L and 1.5L from 2000 through to today (2025). Which is to say, you could bolt the CVT from a CR-Z to the engine, and mechanically, everything lines up. Or, you can use the 3rd gen Fit/Jazz hybrid DCT, which has an EV mode. Or, you can use the G3 Insight / 11th gen Civic Hybrid / Clarity / 4th gen Fit / Jazz hybrid "gearbox" and use that. The axles slide into the transmission, the transmission bolts to the engine, and the mounts bolt to the chassis. The challenge becomes electrical.

But then, the stock Insight motor is only 14hp. The Clarity gearbox, for comparison, has a 200hp electric motor, and a clutch that allows disengaging the engine for EV-only operation.

Similarly, the 41% thermally efficient 1.5L in a 2025 Honda bolts directly to the Insight gearbox. Or, any other gearbox in the series.

Any combination of engine and gearbox can be (mechanically) used, and all options other than the manuals and old CVTs have provision for efficient EV-only operation. The "eHEV" gearboxes (if they can be called that) appear on the surface to be the most straightforward. In these, you just have an EV drivetrain, but also with an input shaft and clutch that allows an engine to add power to the system as desired. Turn the engine on and drive clutch to the wheels 1:1 in parallel to the 200hp electric motor. Or, toggle the engine on and off whenever to spin the generator and fill the batteries.








Honda is not unique in this implementation. It's the classic "series hybrid". Nissan uses something similar in nearly all of their hybrids, but they do away with the clutch and engine connection entirely. You have what is essentially a Leaf drivetrain, but there also happens to be a combustion engine and generator somewhere in the chassis that can add to the battery.

The Koenigsegg Direct-Drive is an interesting example of what you're talking about here, but unusually, by using off the shelf parts:
Simply put; the engine is attached to the motor/differential via an auto box's torque converter with lockup. No gears.

So the motor takes care of 'the gears' with the engine/genset adding some direct work irrespective, but really kicking in when you would normally be in top gear.


Be careful of the hp numbers for electric motors Ecky:
hp is just torque X rpm and rpm is 'nothing' at the wheels...
The huge torque from 0 rpm is where people/you should be looking..!
It's what chews through EV tires in no time after all.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Ecky

The gasoline engine, in many cases, is equivalent to what a fuel tank was in the 20th century.

So, what about battery tech?

[Piotrsko]

Battery tech hasn't changed much physically in the last ten years. Smaller form, more protection, higher charge rates, but watt hours storage is still a physical mass characteristic