Is it time to re-visit solar hybrids?

[JSH]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

That's a good option. And what about water heating?

We heat water in a tea kettle on the stove.

[Isaac Zachary]

• If it has a battery and there are sunny days where you live, why not do solar? Every rechargeable battery is an opportunity to store free energy. Why not start with the rechargeable batteries we already have instead of insisting we need ginormous battery banks everywhere before solar is a viable option?
• To use less fossil fuel it's a good idea to use as much free energy we can get. The sun hitting the roof of a building, car or other object is free energy. If we don't use it for anything the only thing it's doing is heating up the atmosphere. Sure, getting a little solar panel to charge my phone isn't going to save me thousands. But what if everyone around the world started solar or wind charging their phones, or just put well built crank generators on them? How much less CO2 would that equate to?
  
• What about the 12V battery in my car? Or the hybrid battery? Or if I put in a solar powered hot-water heater? Or if I just run as many electronics as I can off solar when there's sun in the sky?
  
• Electricity costs are going up and solar panel costs going down to the point that the panels and equipment can and will pay for themselves in not too long of time for a lot of people.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

[list][*]If it has a battery and there are sunny days where you live, why not do solar?

Opportunity cost. Every dollar I invest in solar is a dollar I don't have to invest in something else that may have a better return.

Will the money I spend on a solar panel for the top of my car, charge controller, and the wiring return that investment in a reasonable time? If the goal is to reduce fuel use are there other technologies that save more fuel per dollar spent?

I work for a auto manufacturer and we have hard fuel efficiency targets to hit mandated greenhouse gas fleet limits. There is a list a mile long of things that can be done to save fuel. Hybrids, aerodynamics, weight reduction, electric accessories, energy saving oils, better heat management, etc. They are ranked the biggest bang for the buck to the lowest and we work our way down the list.


Solar on my house is the same. The last quote I got was for $15,000. My electric bills total $791 per year / $66 per month. That is a 5.3% rate of return and a 19 year payback. Consider the cost of solar is steadily dropping that doesn't seem like a very good investment to me.

Insulating my floor with spray foam is WAY less expensive and would likely make my house a lot more comfortable. The windows are due for replacement too.

[Isaac Zachary]

True. But there's also the questions if long term investments will or won't provide better results over long term than just looking for what's best for short term.

The foam insulation may seem like the best choice now since it has the highest insulating value and also seals air and moisture out. But in the long term it will slowly lose its insulating value and isn't a good material in the face of an unforseen fire which could end up costing more in the long run than say mineral wool.

There's also the benefit of pride of doing what's better for the environment and others than for just yourself. Mineral wool is made of organic and recycled materials whereas foam is made of harmful chemicals and plastics.

Not that I'm an expert and know that for a fact solar panels on a car are better for the environment than an alternative. I guess the question is, what alternative are we talking about?

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Not that I'm an expert and know that for a fact solar panels on a car are better for the environment than an alternative. I guess the question is, what alternative are we talking about?

The alternative is any other fuel saving technology. I listed a few above:

"Hybrids, aerodynamics, weight reduction, electric accessories, energy saving oils, better heat management, etc."

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Not that I'm an expert and know that for a fact solar panels on a car are better for the environment than an alternative. I guess the question is, what alternative are we talking about?

The same one we’ve discussed for dozens of posts; placing the panels in a fixed location where they are more fully utilized.

Some on here have the mentality that the best implementation of something is that which yields the least return.

Those who are environmentally concerned yet lack basic understanding of science and economics believe that just because something can technically be done, that it must be done, opportunity costs be darned. Then there are those that aren’t even aware of what is technically possible, such as those who propose perpetual motion machines or free energy from water (big oil conspiracy).

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

The alternative is any other fuel saving technology. I listed a few above:

"Hybrids, aerodynamics, weight reduction, electric accessories, energy saving oils, better heat management, etc."

The title is about already having the hybrid.

Aerodynamics could definitely be a better candidate for better fuel mileage per cost than solar panels but depend on use case scenarios. For an example all of my jobs are around town and there's a 25mph limit in every part of town. In that kind of situation means aerodynamics will have diminished returns and solar would be more helpful than it would for someone long hauling on the highway.

I don't see everyone running out to do weight reduction either. I need my rear seats, for an example. What else should I take out? The spare tire I guess, but then what if I get a flat here were cell service is still missing in many places, even parts of town?

My car, as a hybrid, already has electric accessories (i.e. there's no accessory belt.)

I already use low energy 0W-20.

Figuring how to keep heat in would be a plus, and I've been working on how to insulate the engine and exhaust.

Does this mean I'm about ready for solar or is there something else?

Originally Posted by redpoint5

The same one we’ve discussed for dozens of posts; placing the panels in a fixed location where they are more fully utilized.

Great! So I'll throw them on my house's roof. But they'll have to lay flat because otherwise I'll need a permit and an expert to install them which will cost a lot more. Then there's the point that I'd need a way of storing the electrical energy but don't have any sort of battery connected to my house already so I'd have to buy one costing me even more. Or figure out how to sell back to the grid which I'm sure my electric meter is not set up for yet so that'll cost even more. Because it's not like I use that much electricity at home during the day in the first place. I don't even have an air conditioner.

Meanwhile my car already has two batteries that I could charge with a solar panel that doesn't need a permit to be set up on top of the car. The 12V of course would be the easiest, but the HV battery not impossible.

[JSH]

I was speaking about a manufacturer adding solar to a new car. That is where it can be added in the most cost efficient manner and most effective manner.

(You would likely need to change the programing of how the car uses the hybrid battery. If you are charging with solar you want the draw down the battery before you park so that the solar can then charge the battery. If the battery is topped off when you park the solar does nothing.)

I can't imagine retrofitting solar to an existing car would ever cost-justify. You would need solar panels at retail price plus a charge controller capable of converting low voltage / low amperage electricity from the solar panel to high voltage needed to charge the hybrid battery. It would likely be cheaper and simpler to just disconnect the 12V battery from the DC - DC converter and charge the 12V only on solar. People here on ecomodder do something similar by removing the alternator and charging their 12v battery from their house.

However, I expect the real gains will be minimal - much less than the factory designed system in the Hyundai Sonata.

Again, if you have $500 to use on energy efficiency there is likely someplace else in your life where that money can be used more effectively and save more energy.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

I was speaking about a manufacturer adding solar to a new car. That is where it can be added in the most cost efficient manner and most effective manner.

(You would likely need to change the programing of how the car uses the hybrid battery. If you are charging with solar you want the draw down the battery before you park so that the solar can then charge the battery. If the battery is topped off when you park the solar does nothing.)

I can't imagine retrofitting solar to an existing car would ever cost-justify. You would need solar panels at retail price plus a charge controller capable of converting low voltage / low amperage electricity from the solar panel to high voltage needed to charge the hybrid battery. It would likely be cheaper and simpler to just disconnect the 12V battery from the DC - DC converter and charge the 12V only on solar. People here on ecomodder do something similar by removing the alternator and charging their 12v battery from their house.

However, I expect the real gains will be minimal - much less than the factory designed system in the Hyundai Sonata.

Again, if you have $500 to use on energy efficiency there is likely someplace else in your life where that money can be used more effectively and save more energy.

Getting high voltage isn't too hard. You just need enough PV cells in series. Of course that would drive up the size of the solar panel(s) unless you use smaller PV cells or cut bigger ones into smaller ones.

If you know how, you can drive in a way that uses more battery so you end up at your destination without much charge.

The hardest part would be to get it to not over charge. I understand the principles of electronics but making a +250V charger controller is a bit out of my league.

I do think for my family that if we put that $500-$1,000 towards some sort of enclosed (for weather) pedal powered family vehicle would be much more effective in the long run than PV, as long as the pedal powered vehicle isn't much more than that.

[redpoint5]

Pedal power isn't any more efficient than burning fossil fuels. It's not carbon neutral either because farming uses fossil fuels, and it clears space that would otherwise be forest or other natural foliage.

I'm not arguing against the health benefits, but human powered transport is already a developed technology, and we don't use it. You can't fight human nature with ideology for more than a relatively small population of people, and for a brief moment. Solutions must factor in human nature or they are destined to failure.