Is it time to re-visit solar hybrids?

[redpoint5]

I guess we know something auto manufacturers don't, because there are practically no cars that offer meaningful range-adding PV, which is strong evidence that it's not time to revisit solar hybrids.

Originally Posted by jakobnev

Yes, a regular hybrid, aka non-plugin hybrid, like I said in post #1 and #9 and #12 and referred to again and again and again and again! I'm glad you finally got it! (Why you didn't understand this from post #9 is beyond me, it was directed directly towards you, and the relevant text was bolded)

Petrol isn't cheap everywhere. And PV was expensive, but price has fallen by ~95% since the pape

What difference does it make to the discussion if a car has the capability to plug in or not? I know you said hybrid (implying no plug), but it doesn't change how retarded solar on a vehicle is, and I'm not following the reason why you're getting upset by my mentioning it.

Any hybrid with sufficient capacity to have meaningful range added by PV would also offer a way to plug in, because that's trivial... and as I said, your PV would best be left stationary where you plug in there.

You're getting hung up on the details when they aren't material to the broader point. I don't take exception to $600/L fictional price, I take exception to any fictitious price that pretends petrol is too expensive and solar is the best solution, because it's still fiction and we live in reality.

... and I'd love to be wrong. Build that 10 mile range affordable solar powered hybrid and prove me wrong.

[JSH]

Adding solar can work - the Hyundai we talked about earlier is a perfect example of the use case. Running the numbers:

50 mpg @ $3.00 per gallon = $0.06 per mile
Hyundai says in perfect conditions you will get 808 miles of solar driving per year saving $48.48.


I would much rather have a solar roof than a useless moonroof which saves me zero dollars a day and will leak given time. It is conceivable that a solar roof could pay for itself in maybe 10 years in perfect conditions but more realistically 15 - 20 in typical conditions.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

Adding solar can work - the Hyundai we talked about earlier is a perfect example of the use case. Running the numbers:

50 mpg @ $3.00 per gallon = $0.06 per mile
Hyundai says in perfect conditions you will get 808 miles of solar driving per year saving $48.48.


I would much rather have a solar roof than a useless moonroof which saves me zero dollars a day and will leak given time. It is conceivable that a solar roof could pay for itself in maybe 10 years in perfect conditions but more realistically 15 - 20 in typical conditions.

I never said solar couldn't work, I said it wasn't worth considering.

To maximize the ROI, one would need to drive the whole range added by solar the preceding day and no more, and then park ideally situated to gain sunlight, every single day, in Death Valley or similarly cloudless region.

The actual payback is infinity, because that investment could be better used on other things... which leads us back to the fact that nobody is doing it because it's a terrible idea. Real consumers would rather have a nicer interior or something rather than 3 miles of "free" daily range.

[aerohead]

I haven't read all posts, so I apologize if the following has been mentioned.
Some extant solar roofs were engineered primarily for cabin ventilation, while parked in full sun, to reduce the air conditioning load if driven during daylight.
The limited PV conversion efficiency and small array size precluded any meaningful power capture. Small battery capacity precluded any meaningful storage capacity. Economics precluded the use of space-grade PVs of higher efficiencies.
Real efficiencies won't come until there's a complete moratorium on additional real estate development until after there's 100% traffic light synchronization, nationwide.
Around 1988, TEXDOT , alone, found that for every $1.00 not spent on traffic light synchronization, motorists were losing $ 67.00, according to the Texas Governor's Office.

[JSH]

The Toyota Prius solar roof was used for cabin ventilation.

The 200 watt solar roof currently available on the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid is used to charge the battery and they claim it can collect up to 0.9 kWh per day.

[S Keith]

I've been working with solar power systems putting one together for our off-grid property, and I've run some numbers.

Basis: 7.6kWh for a Ford Fusion Energi PHEV yields 20 mile range.

That's about 3 miles/kWh.

Panels flat on a roof or hood kinda suck for solar harvest unless you're in lower latitudes.

For summer, 5 hours of insolation is reasonable, winter 1.5.

In summer, 100W would get you 500Wh or about 1.5 miles of driving per day.

In winter, 100W would get you 150Wh or about 0.45 miles of driving per day.

This assumes the solar panels are exposed to the sun from sunrise to sunset.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I guess we know something auto manufacturers don't, because there are practically no cars that offer meaningful range-adding PV

There aren't many pickup truck manufacturers that offer pickups with flat beds and grill guards either. Maybe those don't offer any meaningful purpose to those who put them on their trucks.

Originally Posted by S Keith

I've been working with solar power systems putting one together for our off-grid property, and I've run some numbers.

Basis: 7.6kWh for a Ford Fusion Energi PHEV yields 20 mile range.

That's about 3 miles/kWh.

Panels flat on a roof or hood kinda suck for solar harvest unless you're in lower latitudes.

For summer, 5 hours of insolation is reasonable, winter 1.5.

In summer, 100W would get you 500Wh or about 1.5 miles of driving per day.

In winter, 100W would get you 150Wh or about 0.45 miles of driving per day.

This assumes the solar panels are exposed to the sun from sunrise to sunset.

So every "100W" of PV power will save a guy about $15 of fuel a year (at $3/gal) in a 2nd Gen Prius in a place that's 75% sunny during that same year (assuming the cloudy days are spread evenly throughout the whole year). If you shop around you can get 100W for $20. So it would take a bit over a year to break even.

Of course the problem for the DIY would be to get the voltage high enough, a way to control the charge and a way to mount them on the car.

There are way too many options here to just say it's impossible. Nobody has said that the panels have to be flat. Why couldn't they be made to tilt? They don't even have to be fixed to the top of the vehicle, they could be stuck inside the trunk while moving. Depending on the size and position of the PV panels they could also be the shade for the vehicle. Maybe make them stick out over the front and rear windows. One 100W panel in front and another 100W panel in back could make up to some 1000kWh, about what can be absorbed by a traditional NiMH hybrid battery. A bigger panel could be made that would provide more shade over the car and keep the AC running if you're the kind of person that ends up waiting a lot in his/her vehicle. Maybe link some 25 100W panels in series mounted in a canopy over the vehicle and have them connect to the HV system only when you're in the vehicle so you can run the AC off them in stop and go traffic. The possibilities and configurations are endless.

[freebeard]

"It steam-engines when it's steam engine time"

The Technium: Steam-Engine-Time
https://kk.org/thetechnium/steam-engine-ti/
Steam-engine-time is another name for technological determinism, which is another way to say simultaneous independent invention, Turns out simultaneous parallel discovery and invention are the norm in science and technology rather than the exception (see my previous post). When it is steam-engine-time, steam engines will occur everywhere.

VWs next eBeetle?

elytron
[ el-i-tron ] noun, plural el·y·tra [el-i-truh].
one of the pair of hardened forewings of certain insects, as beetles, forming a protective covering for the posterior or flight wings.

[/URL]

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by aerohead

Some extant solar roofs were engineered primarily for cabin ventilation, while parked in full sun, to reduce the air conditioning load if driven during daylight.

That's quite useful actually.

The limited PV conversion efficiency and small array size precluded any meaningful power capture. Small battery capacity precluded any meaningful storage capacity.

Even though it may not cover all the power consumption of an EV, the auxiliary power for accessories is worth it.

[jakobnev]

50 mpg @ $3.00 per gallon = $0.06 per mile
Hyundai says in perfect conditions you will get 808 miles of solar driving per year saving $48.48.


I would much rather have a solar roof than a useless moonroof which saves me zero dollars a day and will leak given time. It is conceivable that a solar roof could pay for itself in maybe 10 years in perfect conditions but more realistically 15 - 20 in typical conditions.

Now imagine living where gas is $9.00 per gallon. ($9.04 is the highest i have paid) Could grid-tie still compete? Could the stock market? (And it will get cheaper when people are no longer paying early-adopter prices)

Any hybrid with sufficient capacity to have meaningful range added by PV would also offer a way to plug in, because that's trivial... and as I said, your PV would best be left stationary where you plug in there.

Sure there could be a plug on the car, but (and it's a big but) this is still being proposed to people who have nowhere to plug their car in. These people don't have anywhere they could leave a stationaty PV system, they would be forced to remove it, or it would be removed and they would be given the bill - for the removal.

I am suggesting panels, on the car, for people who are unable to can to plug the car into anything! I'm running out of ways to say that in English, NO CANNO THE INPLUGGO!

VITTU MÄ EN SAA PISTÄÄ MUN JOHTOA MINNEKKÄÄN!

如果您不从停车场上取下面板，我会收拾您的器官

I guess we know something auto manufacturers don't, because there are practically no cars that offer meaningful range-adding PV, which is strong evidence that it's not time to revisit solar hybrids.

The manufacturers and me are aware of the same fact: That new car buyers are morons who don't think about what they would actually need and instead just copy what everyone else is doing.

So every "100W" of PV power will save a guy about $15 of fuel a year (at $3/gal) in a 2nd Gen Prius in a place that's 75% sunny during that same year (assuming the cloudy days are spread evenly throughout the whole year). If you shop around you can get 100W for $20. So it would take a bit over a year to break even.

Imagine grid-tie or the stock market competing with that where it's $9/gal.