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Old 04-10-2015, 09:42 PM   #41 (permalink)
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First of all, impressive mileage for a truck! I'm struggling to match those numbers with my Civic these days.

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Originally Posted by mikeyjd View Post
How expensive/difficult would it be to have those rims machined to fit? Light weight is what I'm looking for. I'm planning to do flat wheel cover so aero/appearance are low on the priority list.
A DIY method is to use a router with a carbide rabbeting router bit. Pick the right size and carefully and slowly run the router around the inside of the hub... and done.

Here's a write-up on a GTO w/ G8 wheels:
How to: bore out a G8 wheel center to fit a GTO - LS1GTO.com Forums

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Old 04-10-2015, 10:11 PM   #42 (permalink)
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The easy way for me to check the rear loading was to look at the rear axle bump stops and how close they were to contact. About 1.5 inches should be max load. Once got close to a ton in my 99 F150 with me and 5 gallons of gas, the payload was 1900 pounds. Overall weight was 6100 with the truck at around 3800 empty. V6 stick, standard stripper work truck, bought for $13.5k new with AC, rubber floor mats.

Used it to build a house, 3.5 years later sold it and pocketed a $165k cap gain with no tax liability

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Cool story mech. I'm in the process of moving into/renovating a house with the same intentions.
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Old 04-10-2015, 10:55 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by darcane View Post
First of all, impressive mileage for a truck! I'm struggling to match those numbers with my Civic these days.



A DIY method is to use a router with a carbide rabbeting router bit. Pick the right size and carefully and slowly run the router around the inside of the hub... and done.

Here's a write-up on a GTO w/ G8 wheels:
How to: bore out a G8 wheel center to fit a GTO - LS1GTO.com Forums
Thanks. I'm sticking with the 14'' steelies for now since I already have the tires and moon caps for them. I'm glad to have this info though, for future referance.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:14 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I'm considering trying Potenza Re92's on this truck. I'm currently running Winterforce P195/75R14 and they seem fine. I'd go from 814 rev's per mile to 926 which is more than 10% more rev's. I believe that will translate to rpm directly. My current rpm at 55mph is 2000 even so I could afford to sacrifice some. I think that puts me at 2200+ with the re92's.

I would lose a bit of load rating, but according to my calculations I can get away with Potenza's running a load of 6 appliances and be right at max load rating. Thoughts on flirting with max load rating? I am quite curious about how these tires would perform on this truck.
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:11 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyjd View Post
P195/75R14...814 rev's per mile
Now you're venturing into my area of expertise.
First, revs per mile is correctly based on measured tire circumference, not the measured radius when loaded. So if a 195/70R14 measures 80.12" new circ, then the actual r/mile is around 790.9.
Don't use the advertised r/mile. Distance travelled doesn't change based on load. It does change based on wear. But to avoid speeding tickets, use new radius, which is easier to measure unloaded, using a seamstresses tape measure made of cloth, not metal.
Next, calculating RPM: The calculations are for manuals, or automatics if the torque converter has a lockup feature and is locked.
A slightly taller tire with slightly more circumference is like a slightly taller (smaller number ) gear ratio, it gives less engine RPM per MPH.
If you start at 195/75R14, then try 205/75R14, you won't see any change on your gauges, unless you recalibrate the speedometer. Factory tachometers aren't very accurate, but they seem consistent.
But going from 195/75R14 to 205/75R14 will have you risking a speeding ticket, will increase your rolling drag, and your aero drag unless you lower your suspension to compensate, may help you get away with carrying slightly more weight, and will be less stable at the limit unless you get wider wheels.
In this case, for 195/75R14s, there are load range D options available, if that's of interest. The extra plies means a harsher ride, but they really do offer a little more stability and a little more resistance to punctures.
I see this whole tire experimentation business as jumping over dollars to pick up pennies. I'm not willing to give up any of the vehicles' other abilities, from load carrying to cornering grip to braking power, just in the feeble hope of maybe 1 MPG at best.


Oh, and to the flirting with max load rating, I know a guy with a '94 Dodge Ram 2500 pickup truck. It has single rear wheels, not a dually. It is a Cummins, so it has the Dana 80 rear axle, which is rated to carry a vertical dead weight load of 11,000 pounds. But his tires are only rated to 3,042# each.
Even so, every month he loads his gooseneck trailer so much that the rear of the pickup squats to the bumpstops, some 10" down from no trailer. I kid you not, I exaggerate not. Then he loads it some more.
The truck is 4WD, and that means even more front end weight. Even so, I've seen the front tires come off the ground when he tries to get moving from a dead stop.
And so loaded, he's well over 6100# on the rear axle of this pickup. He hauls this way, trips to the next valley over, to buy feed for his cows, tractors, et cetera. He's been getting away with this for years, with never an accident, never a blowout even on cheap Chinese tires. He runs them at 80 psi, because that's what the tire sidewalls call for.
This amazed me, and I've decided tires are under-rated the same as most other truck parts are. I've seen 85-MPH-rated tures not fail at a sustained 120 MPH. I've seen Drifters get away with 90 psi, even shredding the tires, but no blowouts, on tires rated to half that much air pressure.
Exceeding ratings opens you up to liability issues, but if you're careful, you can get away with an awful lot.

Last edited by cosmick; 04-15-2015 at 01:22 PM..
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Old 04-15-2015, 04:59 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Thanks for the input Cosmick. The change I'm considering is going from 195/75/r14 to 165/65/r14. I am considering this because the Re92's only come in that size and are widely considered one of the most fuel efficient tires readily available.

I hear what you're saying about liability, but I'm not as concerned with that as I am with capability. The most I could ever imagine running on a super heavy load would be 4,200lbs total, and standard full load of appliances measured at the scrap yard today was 3,870lbs including a passenger and all my tools. The 165/65/r14's would be rated for 3,748 total.
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Old 04-16-2015, 10:01 AM   #47 (permalink)
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A number of thoughts:

First, going from 195/75R14 to a 165/65R14 is going down 5 sizes! Not only is that totally unsafe, but your fuel economy is going to be hurt. Stick with the original size - and if anything, go UP!.

Second is that while measuring a tire's free standing diameter (that is, unloaded) as opposed to the loaded radius is the right way to do revs/mile, there is 3% factor that needs to be inserted to get the actual rolling circumference (or rolling diameter).

Put another way: If you are using the actual tire circumference, the rolling circumference is 97% of that value.

Why? I'm not sure, but I think this has to be with the belt acting like a tank track - that the effective length of track would be analogous to the circumference of the belt, and it doesn't matter how much tread is on the tire, the rolling circumference is controlled by the diameter of the belt (except we do know that tread depth plays a role in the revs/mile, so this explanation doesn't quite work.) Whatever the reason is, if you look at the tire manufacturer's values they have about a 3% - oh, let's call it shrinkage!

Most tire calculators do NOT factor in the 3%, but this one does:

Tire Size Calculator - Tire & Wheel Plus Sizing

Why? Because they asked me about it BEFORE they designed the web page.
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Old 04-16-2015, 10:43 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapriRacer View Post
Second is that while measuring a tire's free standing diameter (that is, unloaded) as opposed to the loaded radius is the right way to do revs/mile, there is 3% factor that needs to be inserted to get the actual rolling circumference (or rolling diameter).

Put another way: If you are using the actual tire circumference, the rolling circumference is 97% of that value.

Why? I'm not sure, but I think this has to be with the belt acting like a tank track - that the effective length of track would be analogous to the circumference of the belt, and it doesn't matter how much tread is on the tire, the rolling circumference is controlled by the diameter of the belt (except we do know that tread depth plays a role in the revs/mile, so this explanation doesn't quite work.) Whatever the reason is, if you look at the tire manufacturer's values they have about a 3% - oh, let's call it shrinkage!

Most tire calculators do NOT factor in the 3%, but this one does:

Tire Size Calculator - Tire & Wheel Plus Sizing

Why? Because they asked me about it BEFORE they designed the web page.
False. I've done rollout testing. Plenty of manual labor involved, but how else to discover the facts? Forget the 3% myth. It's busted.
I tested both LT245/70R17s, and P245/50R16s. Same results both times.
You go using that 3% nonsense, while doing 90 in an 85 MPH zone, which we do have out here in the west, you'll have a speeding ticket for 93 in an 85.
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Old 04-16-2015, 10:49 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Thanks for the input Cosmick. The change I'm considering is going from 195/75/r14 to 165/65/r14. I am considering this because the Re92's only come in that size and are widely considered one of the most fuel efficient tires readily available.

I hear what you're saying about liability, but I'm not as concerned with that as I am with capability. The most I could ever imagine running on a super heavy load would be 4,200lbs total, and standard full load of appliances measured at the scrap yard today was 3,870lbs including a passenger and all my tools. The 165/65/r14's would be rated for 3,748 total.
Then you need to change your axle ratio. And that may mean swapping a whole different axle assembly. Check into that. But while the tire may even save you gas, how much more do those tires cost, than just getting Chinese 195s?
If you don't change the axle ratio, you'll hurt MPG even with the reduced rolling drag and reduced aero drag.
So don't forget to include the cost of the ratio change into the cost of the 165 tires.
What I'd be doing is making a collapsible / folding, or removable, air deflector for when hauling. And likewise a taper back for when cruising empty. Once you're moving, the extra weight of one wouldn't matter.
And for what you're doing, a stretched mini-mini-minivan might be better?
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Old 04-18-2015, 11:58 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmick View Post
Then you need to change your axle ratio. And that may mean swapping a whole different axle assembly. Check into that. But while the tire may even save you gas, how much more do those tires cost, than just getting Chinese 195s?
If you don't change the axle ratio, you'll hurt MPG even with the reduced rolling drag and reduced aero drag.
So don't forget to include the cost of the ratio change into the cost of the 165 tires.
What I'd be doing is making a collapsible / folding, or removable, air deflector for when hauling. And likewise a taper back for when cruising empty. Once you're moving, the extra weight of one wouldn't matter.
And for what you're doing, a stretched mini-mini-minivan might be better?
I'm not downsizing. I do plan to build an aero topper this summer though. A minivan would work for my purposes, but would be less ideal than what I'm using now.

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