Acetone...is there a conspiracy?
 

Hope this doesn't SCARE anyone on this forum.....


Article:Truth About Acetone and Ethanol - PESWiki

Test car: 1985 Ford T-Bird 5.0L V8 EPA rating 15 MPG city and 22 MPG highway.

Emissions test using pure 87 octane gas resulted in Hydrocarbons of 190ppm at idle. Fail is 220. O2 was 1.5%. This was suggestive of a small exhaust leak, which the O2 sensor read and richened fuel:air mixture a little too much.

Emissions test using 1 oz. Acetone to 1 gal. gasoline resulted in Hydrocarbons dropping to 111ppm at idle. O2 at 1.5%.

Highway test with this mixture resulted in 23.5 MPG. According to data on the internet, at this very high amount of acetone, MPG should have dropped far below factory. That it actually got slightly better than factory gave away the secret. The slight exhaust leak had richened the mixture of fuel:air and caused a SLIGHT utilization of the acetone.

I saw that the O2 sensor played a part in my results. What I did next was create an INTENTIONAL slight exhaust leak, in front of the sensor to increase O2 in exhaust, to cause computer to richen even more. [leak causes sucking in of fresh air].

Emissions test resulted in increase of Hydrocarbons from the previous 111ppm to 144ppm at idle. O2 went from 1.5% up to 5.2%

Noticeable increase in HP of at least 25%.

Multiple hwy. tests revealed 45mpg.

This is slightly more than a 100% increase over factory.

Tested at .7 oz. per gal. went down to 41 MPG.

Tested at 2 oz. per gal. went down to 30 MPG.

By process of elimination, the best acetone mix for my current fuel:air richness is around 1 oz. per gal.


The secret, known to racing technology, banned and forgotten a half a century ago, is that such fuels as acetone REQUIRE richening of the fuel:air mixture to make use of them. It is said that in those early days of racing, some used as much as 10% acetone additive. I am using less than 1%. Specifically 1:128.

With my emissions at slightly cleaner than gasoline, but my MPG at double what it was, a REAL REDUCTION IN EMISSIONS has been achieved. Fully 50% reduction.

The recent G8 summit set the goal of reducing emissions by 50% by the year 2050. President Bush has signed in to law the requirement for vehicles to get 37mpg by 2020.

We have the technology RIGHT NOW to achieve this IMMEDIATELY.

Reprogramming auto computers is already possible and programs and devices are on the market to do so.

A simple solution for the do-it-yourself mechanic, until the use of the technology becomes affordable and the additives are at the pump, is to TRICK your O2 sensors into making the computer richen. This can be done by either creating an exhaust leak in front of the sensor or by removing the sensor from the exhaust and letting it read pure atmosphere, which is 20.9% O2. The latter will richen mixture to MAXIMUM allowing the most acetone possible and the most HP AND MPG. I have not tried the latter and do not know how well it would work or to what level of increase in HP and MPG might be possible. Try this at YOUR OWN RISK.

* read the Addendum at the bottom of the page....

Interesting indeed. How truthful is it i wonder?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

...FWIW acetone dissolves fuel-system gaskets and eats at aluminum.

http://intensities.files.wordpress.c...to-believe.jpg

From the site.

Okay, I've read as many of these "Acetone" articles as I can find. It always seems to be half and half... Some people say the stuff worked in their car, and others say it lessened their FE.

My question is, has anyone here tried the stuff?? So it eats at aluminum, has this been proven? It eats at gasonline gaskets in the fuel system, has this been proven? Sorry, I just want to see some data from guys who seem to have a better handle on the differernt variables that come into play... And you ecomodder guys are the ones to test this....

You made basically the same thread already.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...mpg-12420.html

Comparing a DIY "highway test" to the EPA's highway test is invalid.
It's full of red herrings and as admitted in the addendum, errors.

Furthermore, you support every out there BS snake oil way of increasing your mileage.

Troll anyone?

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post161491
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...oad-11784.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...red-11235.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tive-9011.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...html#post49106
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ypes-7206.html
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post139441

It's the same stuff over and over.

...well, I'm not an anyone (maybe a nobody?) but, yes, *I* tried it and those were the results that *I* got during my experiment.

...you're more than welcome to repeat the experiment(s) for yourself, using your car engine as a "guinea pig," but remember: you were forewarned of the BAD things that can happen...as they say: YMMV and so will your results.

darn.

I was going to inquire about adding it to maines slop of crap called 87 octane made of fermented wood. :rolleyes:

I seem to be moving the "diesel" back out of the tank now anyhow.

The subject has been beat to death. Do a search you'll kind all kind of threads on it.

Oh, I understand that this has been beat to death, so no worries guys, I'll just search around on the site.

I hear many who say acetone will destroy your fuel pump, if it does ethanol fuel will as well, only older cars that are not ethanol rated will fail.

That said,

Acetone can affect fuel economy both positively and negatively, that is known.

Acetone was used on raceways at EXTREMELY high concentrations as were moth balls, benzene derivatives and other sorts of hydrocarbons. That is known and still going on (many threads on that if you look as well)

Acetone can screw up your sensors, especially O2 that is VERY well documented
(generally it doesn't affect wideband)

Acetone is a major component in many over the counter snake oils for cleaning your engine which it can do that is very well known.

Now to my personal experience. Every vehicle I own is affected differently by acetone. I used it for over a year in the buick.

Here is what I've found, during the summer if it increases FE I can't tell beyond the margin of error, it appeared to be "slightly" higher

In the wintertime it moved my FE up approx 3mpg (I say that but its over many years average compared to 1 season average) Generally it appeared to increase the wintertime FE more the colder it was (comparitively) In other words when its -10 and I'm driving in town my FE is usually around 16mpg acetone it usually was over 20mpg in town but the amount of difference leveled out as temperature rose.

ANOTHER VERY DISTURBING DETAIL! The scanguage is DRASTICALLY affected by acetone on most vehicles. My Buick Scanguage was reading higher and higher FE as I was slowly filling the acetone out. It was reading as much as 50% above what I was actually getting, this behavior grew as temperatures got colder and continued to grow without stop until all the acetone was out at which point it started reading correctly without a fudge factor. And obviously my REAL FE only increased a comparitively small amount. The same behavior on my 01 dodge but only about 30% off.

I believe this is the reason why many folks mistakenly believe acetone doubles your FE because it tricks guages.

Also that is the reason why some cars get better FE, their paticular sensors lean out the car with acetone, other cars get better because it cleans all the crud out much like e85.

I believe a single tank with a small amount of acetone on a GOOD RUNNING MODERN CAR will do no harm and is an easy test so long as you run more than one to base your decision off of.

In other words acetone can affect fuel economy depending on your cars sensors but the amount it does generally is not worth the cost. Mystery Oil, ground/powdered napathalene and 2stroke motor oil have more of an effect if your willing to have a mess, a stink and health problems.

Cheers
Ryan

That did seem a little harsh. Sorry. If you use the search function you will be able to find lots of threads on Acetone.

What you'll find is that it's inconclusive. Some it does some it doesn't. No one here has a dyno where you can test it and the tank to tank variabilities make it impossible to do A-B-A testing.

But not impossible to compare longer averages. And it is pretty cut and dry what it does.

Also Even if there were a dyno to test it each vehicle type responds differently to it as it just messes up your sensors, old vehicles carb'd will exhibit one type of behavior, OBDI still different, OBDII different and wideband still another outcome.

So the only way to know would be to verify your vehicle is 100% ethanol compatible and in good running order and run tests on sets of trips you run often (you have to have a pretty good routine to tell), it will either show a slight gain, a slight loss or no effect depending on the vehicles sensors. The amount of the gain or loss will let you know whether you can trust its having an effect.

If you get a slight gain and your vehicle is safe to use ethanol and you are willing to loose a fuel pump continue and see if the trend continues.

If you have an A/F sensor you can tell immediately if acetone is tricking your sensors. Scanguage can tell you as well if it goes and gives non-sense type FE.

As a side note a 50/50 mix of e85 and 89octain e10 makes my v8 Dodge get better wintertime FE, I will keep a running average again and see if it continues but I drive ALMOST EXACTLY the same routes repeatably in the same way every day every week, every year. Only differences are temperature and wind. 3rd tank with an increase in a row, same FE each time, this tank I haven't been good so I will have to see how much of a real effect it has on my FE for the week.

Cheers
Ryan

I don't necessarily support these things...I just don't live in a cardboard box and peek out now and then...afraid of what I might find....which is the attitude of many on the forum.

I've followed this guy on a Yahoo group ever since he first started posting about this...and still can't tell whether it is BS or not. In fact...I tested 1 oz per 1 G in my wagon...but saw no mpg gain...just smoother running. Need to test it by slightly closing the choke next.

I suspect it might result from an quirk in the Ford EFI system...but don't know....could be a quirk in this guys mind too.

Why follow it? Old vehicles should only be affected by the percentage alone and acetones burn characteristics are well known, you vehicle likely has no sensors thus such a small amount also has no effect on octane or a signifcant affect on energy content.

More likely that is the reason as I alluded to and likely he is going by the scanguage alone as opposed to what his REAL fuel economy is. The scanguage CAN be tricked by placing things in the tank that aren't gas, ethanol does it as well, which I why I only go by my actual read fuel economy not by the scanguage.

Many here seem to believe an O2 sensor isn't affected by unburnt aeromatics, nothing is further from the truth, the question is do you want this?

Also most here aren't willing to test it at all giving the excuse they don't have a dyno, with a scanguage you can tell if your sensors are being cooked. If its giving non-sense its likely sensors being affected.

And whatever you determine on your own about acetone it is likely correct, I have tested it in many vehicles and it DOES NOT improve fuel economy enough to really justify it on any of them, but it DOES improve fuel economy on some of them by rather small amounts.

Cheers
Ryan

An '85 Tbird has no ability to use a Scangauge...he uses tank refills.

No this isn't your mother's use of acetone...this "method" uses quite a bit more.

I can't say I've verified a gain from testing acetone...and am cautious about using it in a vehicle with an electric fuel pump...I'd use a top lube with it for sure.

With my old wagon...I test a lot of stuff...it's still running...carb and mechanical fuel pump.

But his Tbird is EFI...maybe the first year with it?

I've looked outside the box. You can more than double your mileage, without using any acetone.

My setup is a megasquirt computer with wideband O2, audio knock detector, and EGT sensor so I can monitor and adjust anything about the engine. Acetone will change the fuel tune and slightly change the spark tuning. Once you retune the engine to run correctly with it then you are right back to exactly the same mpg as before as long as the fuel system was clean and in good shape to start with.

A dirty engine will get better mileage with acetone or any other small bottle of injector cleaner stuff. But after a few tanks you can stop using it and get the same mileage. A stock computer car might get better mileage with acetone all the time but it is because the engine is out of tune slightly. I would rather not make the engine run out of tune due to increased wear from lean running or knock. You can accomplish the same thing by messing with the signals from the O2 sensor and not bother with the acetone.

I say if your car calls for 87 octane but runs like crap on it now or it doesn't idle as good as it did when it was new then run acetone in it for 4-6 tanks to get it cleaned up. I would prob run like 1oz per gallon so it will be strong enough to actually clean it quickly. Once it is clean I would quit using it. I run it in my cars every so often since it is much cheaper than injector cleaner and does the same job. Every 5-10 tanks or so I might mix in 3oz per 10 gal just to keep everything clean.

Ok, now you are fully in troll territory. Making derogatory comments about other posters who disagree with you.

I live in a polystyrene box! Shseesh! The nerve of some people.

p.s. It's "enrich" and "enriched". Should make you sound more encredible.

Thereifixedit.

http://z.about.com/d/architecture/1/...glasshouse.jpg

:p

I almost see nothing wrong w/ the glass house.

That is, as long as my neighbors don't mind seeing my nudity. I'm not shy... especially in my own home.

...where's all the nubile drunken starlets?

My final answer....

conspiracy side:

* LaPointe mentions being warned by people in the petro industry not to push acetone...my guess is his graph topping at 3 oz per 10 gallons was a compromise...I'd have to guess he was actually using more.

* acetone has a history of use in racing

* India (?) bans use of acetone in motorcycles

* What he has posted online SEEMS cohesive and legit

* acetone is easy to make and occurs naturally to some extent

* IF...what this guy claims is true...it would put the lie to a 3 trillion $ set of wars...due to the probability that a stationary type engine could be set up to run very efficiently and at a regulated speed in a hybrid....not to mention typical automotive use. Too many people with too much to lose and big egg on their faces?

scam side:

* state and fed cops will be (are?) all over this guy...and probably will just assume it's a scam...they don't all drive big Fords with blacked out windows

* he has had his website hacked...as happens often at mpgresearch.com...sponsored hackers?

* I haven't verified an mpg gain with acetone myself.

* If it were legit...other people would know about it?

* guy is running around with 90 mpg plastered on the side of his car...local yokel problems?

Either way he is looking at big problems? He does offer or has offered info for $ as to how to set this up on a car...but the few $ this might bring in couldn't be worth the hassle it brings?

note: I'm not just dishing dirt on this guy..never met him and haven't emailed him...I'm just curious as to what it's all about. At this point I am leaning somewhat towards it being legit. But there are many people who wouldn't want the truth of it to come out though....so there will be much pressure to make it all disappear...and to smear it.

If it is legit...I wouldn't want to be this guy.

If it isn't legit...I wouldn't want to be this guy.

note: one reason I still think acetone "works" is that LaPointe said it did...and he tested out on the highway using no driving techniques...and using tank refills along with a scangauge to confirm...or vice versa. LaPointe eventually went with an additive injector instead of adding acetone and other additives to the gas...plus a fuel heater and EFIE. Hard to say how much he was using.

That UPSLOPE on your moving average in your fuel log is just disgusting. :D

So how much of a fuel economy increase did it provide in your car?

Did what he say would happen happen?

And if you actually want to test something, powder 12oz of pure napathlene in a safe well ventilated area with a mask, making sure face and cloths cannot get contaminated.

Add to 4 gallons of gas and blend.

Burn this mixture in an OBDII power car AKA 96+

Report back what happens.

Unlike other crappy additives this one works but is a HUGE pain in the arse and dangerous to your health.

...there's a VAST difference between "making HP" and "making MPG."

...acetone has been used as an 'octane-booster' in drag racing since the beginning; but, not as a fuel-economy-booster.

Just to point out that acetone in racing has nothing to do with engine efficiency -

N-heptane is also used in racing, along side PURE Xylene (which has a very high octane rating, ~118, IIRC).

Why use something which has 0 Octane? Because there were rules in F1 that kept the maximum octane at a certain level, and a tank full of Xylene was too much, so you add N-Heptane, which is basically inert, and it brings you under the average octane rating for the rules.

They don't do this anymore, that I know of, but they also don't use acetone on a wide scale, unless they need the extra octane on a really hot day, etc... it's not for efficiency at all, rather for keeping the engines from blowing up.

I've tested napathlene, but if you use too much it makes carbon black...smokey exhaust...plus stinks like whatever. You can only keep so much of it in suspension depending on temps...any more and it precipitates out....but probably would just hang in your fuel filter till it dissolves again.

Sounds like you didn't follow directions, OBDII <- Again this trick DOES NOT WORK in a non-automatically tuning car, works just fine OBDII without excess smoke your timing will just turn WAAAYYY back. Low end power improves, exhaust is cooler and FE jumps. Added to an OBDI or Carburated setup your power decreases, car runs like molasses and your spark plugs fowl unless you retime the thing...

Powdered it is 100% dissolvable in bezene which means 4% of fuel (give or take) can be nap

Cheers
Ryan

What kind of FE jump can we figure on?

Its well, rather large. But it depends on the motor, old iron like buick 3.8's Dodges v6/v8's and 350's respond better than newer smaller motors.

I personally fear the stuff myself, inhaled nap powder CAN kill you afterall.

Test it if you wonder use the amount I specify, key is it MUST be powdered and dissolved in the gas before you pour it in, until I find a hands off way of doing it NEVER again! I ruined a set of gloves, a pot, a pillow sham (too keep it from flying in my face) and some other crapola during my test.

And yes If I find a SAFE way of doing so I will do it again on my OBDII stuff.

Not even getting in the proper amount I was up 20% on that tank, in other words it would pay for the $2 a box cost especially as fuel continues on the way above $2.00 Very few additives I know of that pay for themselves plus a little more.

And the only thing a little nap will do is if you don't dissolve it, it can clog your fuel filter. It was used in our gas during WWII in rather large amounts Also on vehicles that are not OBDII it can and will fowl spark plugs and exhaust ports unless you retime the thing.

Personally too much risk to improve FE but worthwhile if you have a safe way of powdering/mixing the stuff.

Cheers

And the potential environmental impacts, of course, probably outweigh any gains you'd see.

Actually it burns cleanly, I would venture to say emissions would stay the same. Nap is only one carbon bigger than octane and the heavy ends of gasoline are much longer than that from what I remember.

Afterall Nap is already in your gasoline, that .5-1.5% burns fine now whats another 3%?

Guess I'll have to give it a try, someday.

What are the chances of just measuring the dry weight of moth balls and tossing them in a gas can and agitating until it dissolves? Seems like that would be a bit safer, I guess.

Is there other stuff in moth balls that could do damage to the fuel system, etc.?

Be carefull, one mothball is not like another only old fashioned NAP works the other crap will make HCL in your exhaust. Also make sure its pure 99.99% and usually the box is labled with weight 12oz per box Which is fine if you use more your FE drops, less your FE drops but each car is slightly different so experimentation would be needed.

The only side effects of nap that I know of are deposites (in the fuel line) Usually again from extreme cold or not being dissolved much like too much sugar in a glass of lemonaid.
And if your motor does not tune automatically the nap massively affects timing so you can end up with carbon black on old cars usually fowling your plugs, On mine it had very little effect on anything and the plugs were fine But both my vehicles are OBDII. And timeing did move about 5 degrees per my guage if I can trust it.

The trouble with the stuff is how to get it in the gas, it takes literally weeks to partially dissolve entire balls but as powder the stuff dissolves instantly.

I guess if you could figure a way of getting it dissolved more safely I am all ears as I would definately test again if I could avoid killing myself.

The balls are hard like glass and really don't dissolve very well.

What I thought of doing was dissolving in E85 or acetone but I was told there was a problem with doing that. Not sure what nap will dissolve in besides benzene (gasp worse than nap)

More or less unless I build an enclosed hammermill that mixes with gas I think I am done with them.

Cheers
Ryan

Good info...since I'm still lost in the 80s...I can't test this as you outline....at least I know which way to turn the timing.

Here is a patent that uses mothballs... 3925031 ...good explanation of how it works.


At around 70F...I had about 20 mothballs dissolved in a pint of gasoline...in cooler weather it precipitates out.


"Naphthalene is a white, volatile aromatic hydrocarbon with characteristic odor; insoluble in water, somewhat soluble in methanol/ethanol, soluble in organic solvents and very soluble in ether, chloroform, or carbon disulfide.

In order to develop a rapid, simple test to differentiate toxic naphthalene from the less toxic mothball ingredient paradichlorobenzene, both types of mothballs were dissolved in isopropyl alcohol, ethanol, methanol, and turpentine. Twenty-five naphthalene and 25 paradichlorobenzene mothballs were weighed, randomly grouped, and then dissolved in the solvents. After 30 minutes, the mothballs were reweighed.

Isopropyl alcohol, ethanol, and methanol did not differentially dissolve the mothballs fast enough to provide a useful test.

Turpentine, however, dissolved paradichlorobenzene at a much more rapid rate than naphthalene (P less than .001). After 60 minutes, all of the paradichlorobenzene mothballs had dissolved, while at least 25% of the naphthalene remained. Thus, when confronted with an ingestion of unlabeled mothballs, the physician could gain preliminary information regarding possible toxicity by dissolving a remaining mothball in turpentine for 60 minutes.

For example, at room temperature, naphthalene is insoluble in ethanol and water, but soluble in toluene and acetone. If there is still solid remaining, clamp the tube and heat it in the water bath until the solvent boils. Swirl the tube and make note of whether or not the compound dissolves. After heating, naphthalene is still insoluble in water, but it is now soluble in hot ethanol.

These are naphthalene crystals, they form in seconds from a drop of liquid naphthalene , (solidifies @ 80C), put onto a glass slide:-

naphthalene crystals > soluable in hexane (component of gasoline) and acetone"