Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-13-2008, 03:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 356

Silver Turtle - '02 Ford Focus Zx3
90 day: 38.83 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Question --- Water injection VS Steam Injection ---

I know that water injection supresses detonation, and you can increase timing on the engine (all because the water vaporizes in the combusion chamber and cools etc etc).

But what if you injected the water as a vapor already? Heat the water to around 300 degrees and inject it... what would happen? Would it heat the engine up to much? Could you still advance timing?

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-13-2008, 08:58 PM   #2 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 811 Times in 594 Posts
Wouldn't have the same cooling effect. Remember heat of vaporization: it takes a whole bunch of energy to turn water at 212 F to steam at the same temperature.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2008, 09:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mito, Japan
Posts: 106

The Move - '99 Daihatsu Move Aero Down Custom XX
90 day: 29.89 mpg (US)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Send a message via AIM to Dust
The benefit of water injection is that you can get cheap fuel(meth) in the form of winter windshield wiper fluid, and lean out your top end, or any end that the WMI is spraying at. Water as a vapor may help, but it's the phase change that sucks out the heat, and allows more timing/boost/whatever. I don't know if the steam would do much as far as absorbing heat, but I know it would absorb space.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2008, 09:36 PM   #4 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,555 Times in 2,218 Posts
It'd probably make the innards nice n clean.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2008, 01:01 AM   #5 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 356

Silver Turtle - '02 Ford Focus Zx3
90 day: 38.83 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Well if it "absorbs" space then that is good when cruising because it means less fuel and more throttle (opening more, reduce pumping losses).

I dont know if I am right, but doesn't steam have more surface area than drops of water? What i am trying to get to is if this would make up for the hotter temp of steam vs water and have the same cooling effect...
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2008, 02:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 811 Times in 594 Posts
Surface area is a meaningless concept for steam: it's a gas, which by definition doesn't have a surface.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 10:45 AM   #7 (permalink)
Dracola
 
Snorg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Snorgsylvania
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by basslover911 View Post
But what if you injected the water as a vapor already? Heat the water to around 300 degrees and inject it... what would happen? Would it heat the engine up to much? Could you still advance timing?
What would happen is you would just pump the crankcase full of water.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2009, 04:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
93 Metro Streamliner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 180

AeroMetro - '93 Geo Metro
Thanks: 1
Thanked 14 Times in 7 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
It'd probably make the innards nice n clean.
That would be a BAD thing, because the cylinder walls need to be oily.

Not only does water injection absorb heat and cool the engine, but while it is absorbing the heat, it converts to steam and expands, assisting the other combustion gasses in pushing the piston downward. This effect would be completely lost if it was steam already.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2009, 08:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
Moderate your Moderation.
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Troy, Pa.
Posts: 8,919

Pasta - '96 Volkswagen Passat TDi
90 day: 45.22 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,369
Thanked 430 Times in 353 Posts
As far as taking up space in the combustion chamber, this was discussed in another thread using gaseous CO2... the end effect could cause a problem, unless the influx of steam/water/whatever was specifically controlled to allow the air/fuel mixture to remain as close to the spark plug as possible. What you wouldn't want is a cloud of steam shrouding the spark plug, because you would then have a net loss of power, a bunch of wasted fuel for each spark event, and a net loss of MPG.

Oh, and non-oiled cylinder walls as well.

You can add propane to your gas engine relatively easily if you want to use less gasoline per combustion cycle, but in order to lower the actual size of your engine, you should just REALLY lower the size of the engine, instead of trying to add stuff to your mixture.
__________________
"¿ʞɐǝɹɟ ɐ ǝɹ,noʎ uǝɥʍ 'ʇı ʇ,usı 'ʎlǝuol s,ʇı"

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2009, 08:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 356

Silver Turtle - '02 Ford Focus Zx3
90 day: 38.83 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
^ Thing is, turbine engines actually use steam (from water being burnt into steam in the exhaust area, just like what I wanted to do), and it works perfectly fine. Its actually called "energy recovery".

As far as being mixed in with the fuel, it will be a homogenious charge since it will be injected FAR behind the throttle plate and it will thoroughly mix with the air....

Who knows, I am just theorizing here

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hydrogen Generator Experiment willy57 DIY / How-to 601 08-23-2016 05:53 AM
DIY - Water Injection Stormin' Norman DIY / How-to 46 12-28-2012 12:48 PM
Hot water from oil in the summer time. Xringer Saving@Home 11 09-06-2008 10:02 PM
Wasting@Home - Confessionals Who Saving@Home 44 04-08-2008 02:36 AM
OEM Air Injection, Yay or nay? Dane-ger EcoModding Central 11 01-14-2008 10:05 AM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com