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Old 02-14-2013, 09:59 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ChazInMT View Post
The long and short of it is this.

You're not gonna believe us and want to argue that it's got to be worth it because you saw it on TV.

It won't do a darn thing for you to put dimples on your car/truck.

I started up here in Ecomodder 3 years ago with this exact idea "Magnetic Stick-on Dimples" and have since learned a huge amount regarding aerodynamics.

Read this for starters. There's a statement about dimples in there for you.

HotRod Mag Aero Article

Search the site for A LOT of info.

My part in this discussion is over.
I guess their credibility might be on par with Mythbusters? They did however mention something that I might look into-that is the transition area from the back of the hood to the windshield. I'm trying now to help seal off the engine compartment a bit to reduce convective heat losses. Keeping that forced air flow through there while driving will most likely help in that respect. Thanks for that link

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Old 02-14-2013, 10:24 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
Read what they said about that carefully.

I was thinking almost the same thing.

Josh8loop, you've got plenty of gumption and that's a good thing. You're clearly thinking outside of the box. I'd like to give you two recommendations: First, start with the best base possible, meaning get your car into peak operating condition so that any mods you do will be more meaningful in terms of efficiency gains. Second, always keep in the back of your mind "action and reaction". Not all changes are good. A little research in advance can go a long way.

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Old 02-14-2013, 04:27 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MTXA View Post
I was thinking almost the same thing.

. Second, always keep in the back of your mind "action and reaction". Not all changes are good. A little research in advance can go a long way.

Soldier on!
Ditto to MTXA comments and particularly the part I quoted.
example:
I lowered my front suspension on the 02 Infiniti Q45 Sport w/ the spring clamps ($10 for a pair) Mainly to see if I could live with it. ended up backing them off for a total drop of 3/4". Loved the ride.

Forgot to get the tires re-aligned and eat up $350 of front tires in 15K miles.!!!!
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Regarding that article in "Hot Rod" magazine, their goal was to break speed records at Bonneville Salt Flats (and they succeeded) They went to an actual wind tunnel to optimize their car. Did Mythbusters use a wind tunnel? Again, I didn't see that episode, so I apologize.

And in this case, at least, they speak the truth. The big flat air dam that looks like a "barn door" - I built one just like that for my car. In coast-down testing, I was able to confirm that it was better than either no air dam, or a more "conservative" air dam I also made. So for higher speeds (I did my coast-down testing from 105 mph to 65 mph), their air dam advice is correct.

As to lowering the car as far as you can, that seems to be correct, too. I also tested that using the same method (coast-down from 105 to 65) by compressing and/or shimming the coil springs. I had already lowered the car, but a friend thought raising the back some might help. His idea was to try to "dip" the nose a little by changing the car's overal angle & push more of the air over the hood & top, while reducing the air under the bottom. - didn't work. The "Hot Rod" article said, lower the car, both front AND back as much as you can. And I got the longest coast-down times by doing just that - putting the front and the back as low as I could get them.

Now, with the layer of foam on the hood and the roof, I think you will definitely get some insulation out of it, but I'd wonder about increasing total frontal area. You may be able to make up for that by carefully contouring the front & back to make the car's overall shape more "aero" - especially the back, if you extend it into a "Kamm-back" type deal. Hard to predict - that's probably one of those things that would have to be determined experimentally.

EDIT: Another reason my friend thought we should try changing the position to "nose down" was to help with "downforce". But it wasn't needed - the air dam did the job... up to over 180 mph, at least. We got the car over 175 on 3 or 4 runs, hitting 184 once. And that thing stayed plastered to the ground like you wouldn't believe. My friend said he could actually feel is "crouching down" as the speed went past 150-ish.

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Old 02-14-2013, 05:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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^^ thanks for the info! Do you have the detailed results (%'s, etc) posted anywhere?

I think this thread is more about "how do I get more mpg" than "do dimples work". So, get the injectors fixed, do the wheel covers, air dam, skirts, kammback, grille blocks, mirror deletes, etc. and then decide if you want more.

Or, build a boat tail for a, ahem, hole in one.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:36 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Or, build a boat tail for a, ahem, hole in one.
Good call.

If you want to drive something with dimples, trade in the Jetta for a Golf.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:55 AM   #17 (permalink)
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^^ thanks for the info! Do you have the detailed results (%'s, etc) posted anywhere?
Just did a brief search for that info. It was all handwritten notes at the time, and I don't believe I posted them anywhere. I was unable to come across the notes for the air dam tests just now, but I did find them for the more recent rear-end height tests.

Guess I didn't remember the tests exactly; my notes say these were coastdown times from 105 to 50, not 65 as I wrote previously. I guess the idea was to let it coast as long as possible, hoping it would magnify any differences. But I know I was also thinking that by keeping it above 65, the aero would be more isolated from rolling resistance, sporadic crosswinds, etc. Guess I went with the longer duration idea in the end..

In re-reading my notes, I did 2 northbound and 2 southbound tests per rearend height setting. I summarized my test into a graph, the results I'll list here;

R. Hgt. - - Low - - High - - Avg.
25" - - - - 54.2 - - 54.9 - - 54.6
23.75" - - 54.25 - - 57.1 - - 55.7
23.0" - - - 56.15 - - 57.05 - 56.6
21.0" - - - 56.55 - - 58.2 - - 57.4

R. Hgt. = height above ground to a marked point on rear bumper in inches
Low = the minimum coastdown time recorded in seconds
High = the maximum coatsdown time recorded in seconds
Avg. = the 4 run (2 n.b. & 2 s.b.) average coastdown time in seconds
The front bumper height stayed between 16.75" and 17.25"

As you can see, there was a pretty clear trend towards longer coastdown times with the lower rear end. Between each set of 4 runs, while adjusting the rearend height, I also added about a gallon of gas to the tank to try to keep the weight the same. The tires were set at 70 psi. Speeds were measured by a GPS speedometer & coastdown times with a stopwatch.

I set 2 orange traffic "cones" out a mile apart on a straight, flat section of road. I had 2 "turnaround areas" about a mile beyond each cone (end of the course). I'd take off and accelerate southbound to about 110 or so before the north cone, then throw it into neutral and watch the GPS speed. When it hit 105 (hopefully really near the cone), I'd start the stopwatch. When it dropped to 50 (hopefully near the south cone), I'd stop it and roll to the turnaround area on the far end, stop, and record the time. Then I'd take off and repeat the process the other direction (northbound), aiming to be at 105 while passing the south cone so I'd be coasting along that same stretch of road each time.

That would be one set. Then I'd do that all again before pulling off to the parking area to put a gallon of gas in and change the rearend height. Each run being 3 miles each way, that's 12 for all 4. Add another one for going over to the "staging area" and back, and that gets us 13. Guessing the car was probably getting about 13 mpg during this, adding one gallon each time should have kept the weight pretty much the same. The fuel level may have dropped a little overall, but it wasn't too much.

When I did the air dam tests, the methods and results were similar. Though I can't remember the exact numbers (will look again), what I DO remember is that the "barn door", or "snowplow" air dam had definite longer coastdown times than the more "streamlined-looking" air dam (second best), or no air dam at all (the worst).

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