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Old 02-06-2013, 07:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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anything comparable to vtec?

I have been stuck on the idea of getting a 90's civic hatch because it seems like a brilliant platform. It has a huge following, lots of available parts, its relatively cheap, great cd, and the vtec is wonderfully tunable and a brilliant design. It seems like they are in very high demand especially in minnesota. Most of them are completely rusted out. Are there other engine designs that have similarly valve valve timing systems and lift control or is Honda the only one that has something at a high caliber?

I know chevy has VVT and DOD but I've heard mixed reviews and that it doesn't work as well as previously thought.


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Old 02-07-2013, 09:25 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Toyota's 2ZZ engine has VVTL-i, which is variable valve timing with lift. That is the engine in the Toyota Celica GT-S (2000-2005), Lotus Elise, Lotus Exige, and certain versions of the Toyota Corolla, Toyota Matrix, and Pontiac Vibe.

I have this engine in my 2002 GT-S and I believe this engine has a lot of potential to make a decently high MPG vehicle that still has decent power in the upper RPMs if you need it. However one thing to note is that many of these vehicles come with very low gearing, it wouldn’t matter so much with P&G but if you are planning a DWL or Cruise vehicle, you would probably want to consider a gear swap.
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:52 AM   #3 (permalink)
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For economy I'd go for the base models of those Toyotas, with the 1ZZFE engine instead. It has VVTi, just without the L (variable valve lift). It doesn't have the "vtec just kicked in!" power at the top, but at low range is a very capable engine.

Most everyone today has some form of variable timing. Ford has TI-vtc, Toyota has VVTI, honda has i-vtec, etc.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:27 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleMelanesian View Post
For economy I'd go for the base models of those Toyotas, with the 1ZZFE engine instead. It has VVTi, just without the L (variable valve lift). It doesn't have the "vtec just kicked in!" power at the top, but at low range is a very capable engine.

Most everyone today has some form of variable timing. Ford has TI-vtc, Toyota has VVTI, honda has i-vtec, etc.
Problem is 1ZZs exclusively came with 5 speed transmissions (horrendous garbage) in the US, while 2ZZs exclusively have 6 speed transmissions.

The 2ZZ has MMC liners, and exotic something else, and is a capable engine across the whole rev range, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it were more efficient across the board (maybe except at very low rpm) due to the friction reduction measures.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I have a tech training class coming up on feb 21st. the teacher is a really smart guy ive been to his training before. i scoffed pretty darn hard at the course description considering honda accomplished this 20 years ago. heres the course description.

"VVT (variable valve timing) - Meeting the 54.5 mpg car is taking shape with 2017-2025 C.A.F.E standards now in place. Car manufacturers are constantly looking for ways to improve engine efficiency, lower emissions, and lowering fuel consumption across all platforms. This seminar will discuss VVT, one of the technologies manufacturers are utilizing to achieve all of the above.
-how vvt works to improve emissions
-discuss the various components of vvt
-explain methods of vvt operation
-discuss diagnostic service methods with a scope/scan tool
-explain the importance of maintenance to safegaurd oem warranties"

im VERY curious to see if the vx (d15z1) is going to come up in the discussion.

in response to your question, the above is an indication that more lean burn engines might be in the making in cars to come. but for now i dont know of any vvt engines that have the capabilities that the d15z1 does. regular honda vtec engines (d16z6,d16y8)usually engage at much higher rpms (4500+) an ecomodder wont get close to that rpm so vtec wont even be used
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:40 AM   #6 (permalink)
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After a bit of looking around. I've come up with this list of companies that have variable valve time and lift control. There are a lot with just VVT but not both.

-Honda vtec- you know the run down.

-Nissan VVL-Not offered in the US.

-BMW Valvetronic.Vanos: variable valve timing system to offer continuous and precise control over variable intake valve lift. Available around 2001. The 318ti might be a decent car to ecomod. (hatchback compact bmw)

-Mitsubishi MIVEC: It seems almost the same as Vtec. It was offered for a good amount of time and over a wide range of cars.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:52 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Okay to clear up the name confusion:
Most variable valve timing systems are cam phasing. This means there is a fixed cam lobe, and then something that changes its relative position to the crank or whatever you want to use as the reference point. Almost every car has this on both exhaust and intake nowadays. If it's just called "variable valve timing" this is what they're talking about, and despite manufacturers sometimes making a big deal out of it, it is quite primitive and standard.

Then there are the variable lift systems. The most well known is VTEC, you have multiple cam lobes that are switched between essentially. Often time comes with phasing as well. Subaru AVLS is another, VVTL-i is another. If it's called "lift" then this is what it does.

The most sophisticated systems on the mass market are the continuously variable lift systems, and these are Valvematic, Valvetronic, and VVEL. The effect is like moving the cam away from the valve actuator to reduce lift and duration together (but they use intermediate rockers or something like that, depending on design). In the US only non-M (except the 1 series M and the recent models with turbo engines) BMWs after a certain point (N54 engines were not Valvetronic and were used up till the late 2000s) and Nissan G37s (and a few more models that I don't know off the top of my head) have this.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:56 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
Problem is 1ZZs exclusively came with 5 speed transmissions (horrendous garbage) in the US, while 2ZZs exclusively have 6 speed transmissions.

The 2ZZ has MMC liners, and exotic something else, and is a capable engine across the whole rev range, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it were more efficient across the board (maybe except at very low rpm) due to the friction reduction measures.
One other notable 2ZZ feature as compared to the 1ZZ is an 11.5:1 compression ratio instead of the 10:1.

Also the Lift Cam doesn’t engage on the 2ZZ until roughly 6200 RPM, so for >99% of all driving it isn’t helping or hurting you.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:24 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
Problem is 1ZZs exclusively came with 5 speed transmissions (horrendous garbage) in the US, while 2ZZs exclusively have 6 speed transmissions.

The 2ZZ has MMC liners, and exotic something else, and is a capable engine across the whole rev range, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it were more efficient across the board (maybe except at very low rpm) due to the friction reduction measures.
We have to compare gear ratios, not just number of gears. The 6-speed's 6th gear actually turns a few more rpm at speed than the 5-speed's top gear. I don't doubt the 6 is a better transmission, but it's not going to be any more fuel efficient.

C59 5-speed
5th: 0.815
Final: 3.941
Combined engine-wheel ratio: 3.212

C60 6-speed
6th: 0.725
Final: 4.529
Combined engine-wheel ratio: 3.284

source: 2004 Toyota Matrix Gear Ratios

Quote:
Originally Posted by aardvarcus View Post
One other notable 2ZZ feature as compared to the 1ZZ is an 11.5:1 compression ratio instead of the 10:1.

Also the Lift Cam doesn’t engage on the 2ZZ until roughly 6200 RPM, so for >99% of all driving it isn’t helping or hurting you.
Does that high compression require premium fuel? That's an added expense. I doubt the per-gallon savings outweigh the extra per-dollar cost.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:27 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I believe the Toyota 1zz and 2zz equipped cars should be as capable for mileage as the Hondas. I almost bought a Matrix last month.

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