Big Improvement in Ford F-250 with manual and 7.5l

[Nerys]

so I hit both keys sue me.

[Ryanrpm]

Originally Posted by rgathright

Hydrogen injection devices have been shown to gain their efficiency at the cost of robbing your 12VDC Battery/Alternator for power. Ultimately you will just wind up draining your battery faster. Save your money folks.

I have made similar posts about this in the past here and on other forums. Water injection is a waste of money, compared to just running without an alternator and installing extra batteries.

How much am I really robbing my charging system guys? Like 8a at most?....which is all this little guy uses.

Most of us who have sound systems in our cars pull way more than that...especially when our amplifies have 100a, or more, worth of fuses on them.

How quick they strike! wow.

[Nerys]

rynarpm. its not the amps that are the issue. The right question is where does your charging system get the power?

the point that is missed is that if you are drawing 8 amps of POWER from your cars charging system than you CAN NEVER EVER be producing more than 8 amps of usable power from the Hydrogen you generate and this assumes its 100% efficient.

its is LITERALLY like trying to grab your ankles and LIFT yourself up. You need to get or apply energy from "outside" the system.

Hydrogen can work (though I have my doubts as to whether it can be used in this manner) but NOT when powered by the car itself.

because now your burning more gasoline to make electricity to run a hydrogen generator to spray into your engine to burn. see how its a closed loop?

entropy says this can not work. all energy transfer systems are lossy. you can never get more than 100% back.

the reason gas works is because we get the energy from OUTSIDE of the immediate loop. ie the planet made the gas over millions of years.

we are just using the result somewhere else (in the engine)

to even have a CHANCE of working you would need to bring your own seperate power supply with you to run the hydrogen generator IE a battery pack.

your still going to use more charging the pack (pesky entropy again) but your electricity in the house costs less than the gas in your tank so it MIGHT work in the end to save you some money.

Most people think. the alternator does not take much gas to run I can spin it with my hand.

Plug something INTO the alternator and NOW try to spin it :-) as you apply electrical demand on the alternator it will get harder and harder to spin.

one time I had to connect a 3000watt inverter to my minivan 3.0 V6 to power our fridge and freezer in the garage (power was out for 2 days)

when both tried to turn on together drawing a mere 6-7 amps each. it damned near stalled the engine.! in fact the only reason it did not was the inverter turned off (as the engine slowed down to stall it stopped producing the minimum volts it needed to run)

so I had to stagger start the compressors so only one was going at a time and then give it some gas when both came on at the same time.

takes a lot more gas than you might realize to produce 8 amps.

[AlaricD]

Originally Posted by Ryanrpm

How much am I really robbing my charging system guys? Like 8a at most?....which is all this little guy uses.

8A@12V is 96W, or about .13HP.

Converting the mechanical energy of the engine into electrical energy at the alternator is lossy.

Converting the electrical energy into chemical energy (by splitting water) is very lossy.

Reburning the hydrogen and converting it to mechanical energy is lossy again.

Three losses-- where are your gains?

Also, that additional 8A load on the alternator is extra load on the wires in the charging system, which means the wires get less effective at carrying the electricity due to the heat, so there's more inefficiency.

Water injection in and of itself is a time tested way of increasing the efficiency of the engine, in part by allowing you to advance the timing much further than before (assuming the engine management allows you to do that).

If you can disable the electrolysis portion of the aquatune but keep the water injection functions, you might have a winner there.

[Nerys]

but word of caution. YOUR DOING FREAKING AWESOME so don't change anything if you can put it back :-) hehe

[Ryanrpm]

Ok, I'm a learner at heart....so bear with me. I understand the logic of not being able to put back what I take. Yes, there are losses. But one thing that has always made me scratch my head and think, "why doesn't this get mentioned?" is: Doesn't the alternator always generate more current than we need? I don't know about these newer cars, but with older vehicles, one could use the battery to start the car, and then disconnect the battery altogether and run the car off of the alternator alone.

So using that example, can't the alt run the car, and the battery run the electrolysis unit?

AlaricD: The gains would be Combustion Efficiency. With the Aquatune system, some unconverted H2O does get injected into the comb. chamber, and because it is displacing available oxygen, the o2 sensor reads this as rich, and then leans out the a/f ratio. (am I right on the o2 sensors functionality? More o2 in the exhaust reads as lean, and less reads as rich) <--this was explained to me by the owner/inventor Nick Foy. This is why the Aquatune requires no external sensor adjustments. The gain is a leaner A/F ratio which saves gas in the long run.

But anyhow, help me understand how an engine, that is turning an alt with a belt 100% of the time, uses more gas to replace current losses. Does the alt increase resistance (and therefore use more HP) when it is replacing lost current? If it does, then I could see more gas usage to make the electricity we lost during electrolysis.

[Mustang Dave]

The alternator requires proportionately more power to turn it in order to generate more amps at a given voltage. (At least that's what I learned while earning my electrical engineering degree.) I doubt the laws of physics have changed since then.

[Nerys]

not physics just knowledge. as we know power plants end up having to put out "x" power whether its used or not hence why some localities make E cheaper at night to encourage people to run high drain things at night.

in your car though the alternator takes almost NO power when its "unused" (which is never but thats besides the point)

for an example of this next time you have your belt off give the alternator a "spin" note how easy it is to spin?

While running the minimum power is not the minimum the alt can put out but the minimum your car NEEDS to run which for many cars is actually quite a bit of power (shockingly large amount of power I am learning for some cars)

this creates a load. as you turn on more things you add more load.

its turning the alt belt 100% of the time but the "load" is not present 100% of the time at least not evenly.

Your car would not make it far without the alternator (there is not as much power in that battery as you think) and as a starter battery it gets really pissed off if you deplete more than a tiny amount of power from it before recharging it. IE big degradation in life span. IE they don't like it.

Even deep cycles are damaged if you consistantly take them below 80%

you need some good quality deep cycle cells then you can take them to 50% with a Decent lifespan.

How long does your battery last if you leave your head lights on? well those lights consume 7 amps. Your generator is already consuming more power than your headlights do at low beam. 8 amps is a lot of juice.

In theory YES if hydrogen was more efficient at combusting and it helped you combust gasoline better you COULD see gains running it off the car.

but ONLY if those gains are larger than all the losses in the long long chain of losses you create when you do this.

the newer your car the less likely it is too work since the newer cars really are pretty efficient at burning gasoline (relatively speaking)

either way the real answer is to put 2 or 3 good quality battery in the trunk (you need to figure out how much power you need between access to a charging jack) and power the hydrogen system off that. IF your going to see a real gain thats how your going to see it.

[Ryanrpm]

But then, someone will say.....you just created another loss because of the additional weight of the batteries you're hauling around in the trunk.

Anyways, thanks for the info. It's still fun to experiment....and burn gas doing it.

[Nerys]

not the same thing. yes you need more energy to move the "mass" of the batteries but not the ENERGY of the batteries. that came from the outlet in your house. See we are adding energy from OUTSIDE the system.

once you do that there is only 3 questions

is the power enough?
will there be a gain?
Is the E from your house cheaper than the gas you saved if any?