Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-04-2018, 08:45 AM   #1 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,579

Gaptooth (retired) - '00 Honda Insight
Team Honda
Gen-1 Insights
90 day: 54.26 mpg (US)

Such Fit - '07 Honda Fit Sport
90 day: 41.27 mpg (US)

Connect - '15 Ford Transit Connect XL
90 day: 23.93 mpg (US)

K-sight - '00 Honda K-sight
90 day: 40.97 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,340
Thanked 1,485 Times in 940 Posts
Brushless alternators

In the past I've read many of the threads on this topic here, and my understanding is that most alternators are not very efficient, somewhere in the ballpark of 60% peak. To my knowledge, brushed motors generally have electromagnets on the rotor, and permanent magnets in the stator. Brushes are necessary because one needs to transfer electricity to the spinning rotor, and these brushes cause friction. Brushless motors by contrast have permanent motors in the rotor and electromagnets in the stator.

Right now I have most of the hybrid system removed from my Insight. The large brushless 3 phase AC motor is still in place, and I've been using that to generate 12v for the car rather than adding an alternator. My setup is as follows:

3 phase brushless motor, producing ~70-300v AC -> Schottky diode rectifier, efficiently converting 3 phase AC into 70-300v DC -> Meanwell power supply with its internal rectifier bypassed, producing 14v DC

My question is this: If brushless motors are generally more efficient, why aren't alternators brushless? Does it make them more expensive, or larger?

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 08-04-2018, 09:31 AM   #2 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 7,838

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 179
Thanked 2,498 Times in 1,953 Posts
Brushless alternators are much larger and more expensive.
ACdelco had made brushless tractor trailer alternstors.
Unless you are putting lots of hours on your vehicle it's probably not going to be worth it.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
Xist (08-04-2018)
Old 08-04-2018, 10:17 AM   #3 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,521

Volt, gas only - '12 Chevrolet Volt Premium
90 day: 38.02 mpg (US)

Volt, electric only - '12 Chevrolet Volt Premium
90 day: 132.26 mpg (US)

Yukon Denali Hybrid - '12 GMC Yukon Denali Hybrid
90 day: 21.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 164
Thanked 333 Times in 232 Posts
I'm going to go with expense also, to explain why new vehicles still use the same old method to generate 12vdc.

Fortunately, when all (or vast majority) of cars utilize an electric motor, we can finally start realizing those efficiency gains.

I found one by delcoRemy, stated efficiency of 73% at 12v and capable of 430amps, 80% at 24v.

I don't want to get too off-topic, but I would love to see 24v replace 12v in cars.
__________________




  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ksa8907 For This Useful Post:
redpoint5 (08-07-2018)
Old 08-04-2018, 11:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
...beats walking...
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,191
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,521 Times in 1,122 Posts
Detroit (and US military) have talked about 48VDC systems for years!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2018, 12:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 7,838

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 179
Thanked 2,498 Times in 1,953 Posts
There is a cs130 style 12v brushless alt on ebay for $350.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 02:56 PM   #6 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Ecky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,579

Gaptooth (retired) - '00 Honda Insight
Team Honda
Gen-1 Insights
90 day: 54.26 mpg (US)

Such Fit - '07 Honda Fit Sport
90 day: 41.27 mpg (US)

Connect - '15 Ford Transit Connect XL
90 day: 23.93 mpg (US)

K-sight - '00 Honda K-sight
90 day: 40.97 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,340
Thanked 1,485 Times in 940 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
There is a cs130 style 12v brushless alt on ebay for $350.
Nice.

Which vehicles have small altermotors which might be usable in a retrofit? Any of them belt driven?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2018, 03:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 7,838

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 179
Thanked 2,498 Times in 1,953 Posts
The small 12v brushless alt appears to be a 100 amp CS130 style. It could fit tons of GM vehicles, the cs130 was used in GM cars and trucks, some dodge use the cs130 other trucks could use it with little modification.

It's a ACdelco so you can put any size and style of past and present of ACdelco 17mm pulley on it.
For years the CS130 was the cool upgrade for Ford, mopar, older GM, Jeep, tractors and stationery engine drive machines.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
Ecky (08-07-2018)
Old 08-30-2018, 03:15 PM   #8 (permalink)
EV OR DIESEL
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 1,722

FarFarfrumpumpen - '03 Volkswagen Jetta Wagon GLS Premium

Quorra - '12 Tesla Model S P85
Thanks: 55
Thanked 95 Times in 75 Posts
Send a message via AIM to dremd
Also engine compartment temperatures are close to Currie temperatures of higher performance magnets to start with, so it’s easier to just use electro magnets for alternators that don’t see tons of hours.

__________________
2012 Tesla Model S P85
2013 Nissan LEAF SV totaled by now deceased intoxacated driver.
2012 Nissan LEAF SV
6 speed ALH TDI Swapped in to a 2003 Jetta Wagon
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to dremd For This Useful Post:
Ecky (08-30-2018)
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com