Combined starter alternator.

[phord]

I read that early cars had combined starter alternator did they?
I wonder if it is possible to do nowdays too? (Less weight less complexity).

[Christ]

Well, yes. Some vehicles and other motive machines did have starter/generator setups. The weight and complexity of the current system isn't really enough to go back to using them, but I'm not really sure why we ever stopped to begin with. I prefer them on the older machinery I have, and have added some from busted JohnDeere equipment (old stuff) to some of the newer stuff to negate the need for a starter on larger motors. (It's really hard to pull-start a 22HP VanGuard, but it can be done...)

[RobertSmalls]

Hybrids have them, where it's a combined starter, alternator, traction motor, and regenerative brake. Hybrids usually run at 36-200V and have a high voltage deep cycle battery that is a large part of why hybrids are expensive. However, it's possible to do those things at 12V, and some auto parts suppliers (Bosch comes to mind) have developed them. I presume the reason 12V belt ISG's aren't popular is that they do in fact cost more than the conventional method, and the benefits aren't worth the cost.

[user removed]

They should be required on all cars since 13% of the fuel purchased in the US is wasted idling.

regards
Mech

[phord]

So is it possible to modify one of a hybrid? Because I see wrecked hybrids all the time here I thought I could do it cheaply.

[RobertSmalls]

You're right, OldMech, and I should have said: ISGs aren't worth the cost to the automaker who is unable to explain the ISG's value to the customer.

Phord, the short answer is "no". The long answer is that it has been done, but not without enormous effort. The folks at Red Light Racing have a Honda Insight with Insight transmission and hybrid motor, and a VW diesel engine, and they report it all works smoothly. There's also SVOBoy's CRX with an Insight powertrain, which is not yet a hybrid, but that's just nitpicking, IMO.

Your best bet is probably parts from a 36V Malibu/Vue hybrid. They use a high-tension belt driven ISG, which would be relatively easy to install on your Phord FISO (what do you drive, anyway?), though I have no idea what kind of controls it requires.

[user removed]

A retrofit may not really be practical or cost effective. many different companies are working on an ISG. One I read about recently used a planetary gear set to get the torque for starting while keeping size small for electric generation.

Also read that Mazda was not going to bring them into the US market because EPA testing does not show the real benefits of them in it's test cycle.

Maybe I just don't understand the pros and cons, but it would seem like you could use the flywheel in almost any car for an IGS. Maybe there is some reason why its not practical that I don't understand. I always liked the idea of no fan belts on a car, been done by many a long time ago. I remember a Bentley that had all the accessories running of a shaft driven by the timing chain, with no fan belts.

No reason to ever say "I should have said" Robert. Not a matter of right or wrong, just more good information, of which you have certainly made a significant contribution.

If you are ever passing through eastern VA stop by for a beer, or beverage of your choice.

regards
Mech

[Bicycle Bob]

Usually, you want a starter handling a lot of power, turning the engine slowly, and a generator handling a little power as the enginie turns fast. Hence the usual duplication. It could be resolved by an extreme gear change and wiring tricks. A hybrid, with enough electric motor power to affect the wheels has enough torque to work as an instant starter with no extra complications.

[Ryland]

For lower voltage, I think that the ideal operating speed of the alternator and the starter are to far appart, starter operates at around 20 times the RPM of the engine speed while the alternator operates at twice the engine speed, the Honda N360 did have a combined generator/starter but when it became the N600 they stopped and went to separate units, most likely because they could then use an alternator instead of a brushed generator.

[Piwoslaw]

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

it's possible to do those things at 12V

I remember reading 10-20 years ago about plans to raise automotive voltage to 42V to power all of the extra accessories, and to ease engine start-stop. What ever happened to that?