Crapped. 2 tires have bubbles.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Forgive my long-windedness.

I've had it work all four ways, so I can express it as a matrix:

understeer oversteer
avoidance
crash


I think that avoidance is avoidance, regardless of if you have to do some reversing to get headed back in the direction you want and/or embarrass yourself in front of other drivers.

So the other option is the crash. With understeer, you still plow right into the hazard with the front of your car. Not fun. With oversteer, you spin and, in the maybe 1 or 2 cases where I've crashed, I hit with the rear and at a much lower speed. Spinning scrubbed off more speed than plowing, and the impact was to a less critical area of the car.

I think the most important thing is comfort and personal preference. The whole thing with understeer built into current cars and tire positioning to promote understeer is just idiot proofing. If you're the type who just gets in the car and goes, without giving these sort of things a further thought, then just go with what the "experts" tell you. Presumably it's to save yourself from yourself.

Otherwise, think, practice, be vigilant, and go with what you feel is the safest option. It might well be understeer for your particular situation, which is fine, as long as you know that's what you're choosing.

[CapriRacer]

Officelinebacker,

I'm afraid you've misunderstood, so I'm going to parse your post out so it is easier to understand my responses:

Originally Posted by OfficeLinebacker

I get the reasoning behind choosing understeer vs. oversteer, but my personal preference is oversteer.

.........

This isn't understeer or oversteer. This is no steer - in other words, loss of control.

Originally Posted by OfficeLinebacker

........
For me understeer means I just keep going straight into whatever I was trying to avoid. Sure there's a slight chance that traction will return, but for me that only happens when I realize that having max. press. on the brake isn't working, I let up, and the car suddenly turns at the last second.

When I spin out, true I have less control, but at least I am not pointing exactly in the direction I am trying to avoid.

.........

You may not be pointed in that direction, but you're headed in that direction (but pointed sideways or backwards!) with no opportunity to correct the direction of travel.

I realize, this is somewhat counter-intuitive, but I've had more luck when I went off track nose first, than when I went rear end first. When going off front end first, there was a speed were the grip came back and I could steer again, but when I went off tail end first, I had to wait for the racecar to come to a complete stop before I could manuever again.

This isn't about personal preference or comfort. This is about safety and it should come first.

[whitevette]

Originally Posted by OfficeLinebacker

I get the reasoning behind choosing understeer vs. oversteer, but my personal preference is oversteer.

For me understeer means I just keep going straight into whatever I was trying to avoid. Sure there's a slight chance that traction will return, but for me that only happens when I realize that having max. press. on the brake isn't working, I let up, and the car suddenly turns at the last second.

When I spin out, true I have less control, but at least I am not pointing exactly in the direction I am trying to avoid.

Sort of like the broken clock is right every 12 hours thing. In my experience, when I am going a panic manouvre, the direction I am first pointing in is generally the least desirable option. Even if a spin out means essentially a random outcome as far as direction, that's still preferable to the understeer option.

That, and doing panic manouvres on my own in deserted parking lots and whatnot, I find the option that is most comfortable to me.

The most important thing to me is predictability and practice. If the panic manouvre is the first time you've ever taken your vehicle's handling to the limit, then you're best off bending over and kissing your ass goodbye. If you've done it before in surroundings where the worst outcome of loss of control is some lost rubber and lots of squealing noises, your chances of coming out of it OK are exponentially better, regardless of where the worn tires are.

Right on!! Exactly! There is yet another advantage to an over-steering
car ( trucks don't live in this world) most drivers aren't even aware of...and this is steering. It is a piece of cake ( usually...) to steer an over-steering car with the throttle! Try this with an under-steering car...and nothing happens.

NASCAR drivers refer to "tight" and "loose" - this is the same thing. "Tight" is over-steer, "loose" is under-steer. Question: NASCAR drivers seem to favor "loose"...do we ex-kart racers know something they don't? LOL! I much prefer to be able to steer than to just slide into trouble....

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

Officelinebacker,

I'm afraid you've misunderstood, so I'm going to parse your post out so it is easier to understand my responses:

This isn't understeer or oversteer. This is no steer - in other words, loss of control.

Your handle has the word "racer" in the title, so I'll give you the BOD. So I'll just say that you are misinterpreting what oversteer and understeer are.

That, and you seem to be arguing with me when there is no argument. As I said at the end of my post, it's all about experience and preference. You seem to feel more comfortable with understeer (or "no steer" as you call it). You've clearly taken your car to the limit and beyond, and choose understeer. Great. More power to you. I'm not knocking your preference. Please don't knock mine.

Also, please don't separate personal preference and safety. (Unless once chooses to be unsafe.)

Let me end by asking something, along the lines of whitevette's post:

When your car is understeering, what can you do as a driver to fix it? In my experience, keep cranking the wheel and hold on. Maybe modulate the brake pedal if you don't have ABS. Yes, the steering may come back, but when?

When oversteering, what can you do? You can steer into the skid for one, and you can apply throttle for another. Yeah, it's scary as **** to push the gas when you're losing control, but you only have to regain control once for the light to go on and say, WOW! That works!

Finally, in the interest of full disclosure, upon further meditation, I have pulled one "Gordon Smiley." Please forgive my gruesome reference, but this is when you oversteer where there's a barrier to the outside of the turn, steer into the skid, and suddenly regain traction, only to go head-on into the wall/barrier. This happened once when I was really tired and exited a freeway on an off-ramp that was unexpectedly covered in stay dry (kitty litter type stuff used to soak up oil spills). Apparently there had been an accident or some kind of oil leak and the authorities simply scattered stay dry all over the ramp and just left it there. Judging from the skid marks in the stay dry, I made it much farther then most, and had a lesser impact (for example, there were pieces of broken brake rotor further down the ramp, whereas my car was still drivable). Also in the interest of full disclosure, some cars must have simply made it through.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally Posted by whitevette

NASCAR drivers refer to "tight" and "loose" - this is the same thing. "Tight" is over-steer, "loose" is under-steer. Question: NASCAR drivers seem to favor "loose"...do we ex-kart racers know something they don't? LOL! I much prefer to be able to steer than to just slide into trouble....

Whoops, you got that backwards--tight means the car is pushing, or going straighter than the steering input would dictate. Loose means oversteer.

I think most drivers prefer understeer because it's more predictable, and easier to compensate for (these cars are very well balanced so understeer in NASCAR isn't like understeer in a street car). You can induce TBO or TTO but I don't know of any way to "make" the car understeer.

That being said, the very fastest drivers can drive a loose race car, and you often see Kyle Busch and Carl Edwards coming out of the turns "sideways."

One thing I will agree with is that oversteer is way scarier and harder to handle, especially in a panic situation.

[Jeece]

I know we already turned the subject around & around, but may I point this out:

Aged tires (sold as new)

Sensationalism aside, it's still worth to point out that tires have a shelf (and road) life. The "date code" part is interesting.

As for the "where to install worn tires" debate, my dad and some tire places I've been suggest to put the less worn in the rear, quoting oversteer prevention. Another "tire" place (Canadian Tire, for what it's worth :roll: ) installed new tires in front of my gf's car even though I asked otherwise (she had a flat and replaced only a pair). They had the FWD/traction argument. *shrugs* Both sides are logical and have their merits. As long as you're aware of 'em all, choose the way that suits you.

Myself, if the wear difference is minimal (if I have a matched set), I'd stick the best tires on front. They'll eventually wear some more, and then I rotate, etc. Else, you grind the already worn tires even more, and need to replace those two. The rear tires then last for years, leading to the age problem.

To end the debate: buy 4 new tires (or a set of used, but matched and with equal wear), and rotate 'em frequently!

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally Posted by Jeece

*shrugs* Both sides are logical and have their merits. As long as you're aware of 'em all, choose the way that suits you.

I love this place. At the end of the spirited discussion, we don't knock each other (or at least try not to).

I used to think I was getting the best deal by ordering my tires from the Tire Rack and getting them mounted nearby, but then I found out about these used tire places. They're a steal!

So nowadays I just buy used--they're not being represented as anything but used, they're a better value, and installation is cheaper at these places, too.

Finally, slightly worn tires are lighter and lower rolling resistance--It's a win-win-win-win-win!

[MazdaMatt]

I'd have to side with keeping the traction on the rear. As a racer I perfectly understand these dynamics as well. Last weekend my front tires were reaching the end of their lives... my laps seemed faster because i was smoother and it felt safer... i was actually slower due to less steering traction, but the smoothness meant I had more control over the dynamics of the car.

I've gone off track due to understeer and i've gone off due to oversteer.... watching a wall approach in your rear view mirror is FAR scarrier than watching it approach from the front where you can still steer away when you slow down.

I know people that put snow tires up front only... they say "well it gives me more traction so i can go faster"... I ask them "so how fast can you stop when your car is sideways?"