Was the Cummins ISF2.8/R2.8 engine underestimated?

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Piotrsko

@JSH: what are the industry plans for diesel power going away?

Short term - gasoline. It is far easier to meet emission standards with a gasoline engine and even easier if you go naturally aspirated + a hybrid.

Also just more complicated diesel aftertreatment. CARB / EPA 27 will cost about $10k to $25k more for a diesel so the diesel take rate will likely drop a lot as commercial customers will look at total cost to own and you can buy a LOT of gasoline for $25k. Even now some sectors are rapidly shifting from diesel to gasoline in the medium duty segment

Longer term battery electric for local and regional. Even long haul current battery electric technology can work if you have enough chargers. Building out charging infrastructure is an economic / political problem not a technical one. Especially in place like the EU with stricter labor laws that allow for shorter driving hours per day and mandatory breaks every 4 hours

Long long term hydrogen fuel cell but only for applications that really need the energy density and fuel portability because the trucks cost more than battery electric and it takes 3x more electricity per mile to power a fuel cell truck vs a battery electric.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Whenever I see all those political moves toward EVs and Hydrogen, I wonder if someday common sense will be common again...

Both ethanol and CNG still make more sense than Hydrogen, and can be implemented fairly easily in a spark-ignition engine. Just look at that Ford Godzilla engine, which resorts to port-injection and is fairly easy to adapt to run on CNG, either dedicated or retaining the capability to also use gasoline (or ethanol in the flexfuel 6.8L version).

And while Ford gave port-injection a chance with the Godzilla, I must confess I was quite surprised that GM switched to direct injection for the Silverado 2500 and 3500 when it (finally) replaced the 6.0L engine for the 6.6L which is available nowadays, even though the Silverado 1500 was already resorting to direct injection for a while.

[JSH]

Ethanol is a dead end in the USA. We already dedicate 45% of our corn crop to making ethanol and that gets us to a 15% mix in our gasoline. Even if we used the 45% of corn we mostly waste in livestock feed we would only be up to 30% ethanol.

Natural gas was supposed to be the new green fuel 2 decades ago. Cheap, plentiful in the USA, and lower emissions than gas or diesel. It never got to more than a niche slice of the market even with national natural gas pipelines and NG in most homes and businesses. The problem was cost. Tens of thousands extra for the truck plus hundreds of thousands for fueling stations. Then their is the problem of tanks. To get enough range you need LNG or very high pressure CNG. DOT requires regular inspection of those tanks and they have a set end of life date stamped on them. (I forget the exact number of years - it is between 10 and 15)

Then there is the simple fact that NG still has both GHG and local emissions. If the goal is zero emission than NG is off the table. Maybe the goals change but today the only portable fuel that is also potentially emission free is hydrogen

[Piotrsko]

On the commuter/handicapped vans i drove it took 100 gallon tanks to do 200miles which was everything aft the axle a foot off the ground. 10 year pressure testing and after every rear incident. Self sealing and jettisonable...not really practical for home use.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by JSH

Ethanol is a dead end in the USA. We already dedicate 45% of our corn crop to making ethanol and that gets us to a 15% mix in our gasoline. Even if we used the 45% of corn we mostly waste in livestock feed we would only be up to 30% ethanol.

I'm favorable to ethanol, not only due to the successful experience in my country where most ethanol is made out of sugarcane but also because it can be integrated with livestock feeding instead of competing against it for arable land. Grain recovered from distilleries actually has a better digestibility for cattle than raw corn. And other raw materials, including leftovers from food processing/canning plants can be used as a feedstock for ethanol.

Natural gas was supposed to be the new green fuel 2 decades ago. Cheap, plentiful in the USA, and lower emissions than gas or diesel. It never got to more than a niche slice of the market even with national natural gas pipelines and NG in most homes and businesses. The problem was cost. Tens of thousands extra for the truck plus hundreds of thousands for fueling stations.

I'm familiar with the downsides of CNG, not to mention home refuelling was never common in my country. Even though NG pipelines are more common in larger cities nowadays, to the point many people and businesses are switching from bottled LPG to NG for home appliances and other devices, I wouldn't hold my breath for home refuelling to become so common here. But I have seen much more dedicated-CNG and dual-fuel big rigs, and even some buses, in recent years due to the ESG agenda and the carbon credits market. Odd enough, while travelling by train to a neighboring city, I noticed some dedicated-CNG trucks inside a refinery located beside the railway.

Then there is the simple fact that NG still has both GHG and local emissions. If the goal is zero emission than NG is off the table.

I don't believe zero emission to be effectively achievable.

Maybe the goals change but today the only portable fuel that is also potentially emission free is hydrogen

Not only Hydrogen is much more reactive than other fuels, so it might be even more dangerous to handle, it will still lead to some NOx emissions, unless the engine is supplied with pure O² instead of atmospheric air which has more Nitrogen than any other element.


In the end, there might be still room even for biodiesel and other heavy fuels in the middle to long term...

[JSH]

The only market in the USA for NG vehicles is Medium and Heavy Duty. Companies with deep pockets and set routes like FedEx and UPS have made it work but you need to do a LOT of miles toget the fuel savings required to pay back spending tens of thousands more for the truck

Hydrogen fuel cells have no NOX emissions. Combustion H2 really isn't worth discussing due to the horrendous efficiency. You need roughly 5x more electricity per mile for an ICE H2 truck vs battery electric.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by JSH

The only market in the USA for NG vehicles is Medium and Heavy Duty.

It used to be much more common on light-duty vehicles in Brazil, mostly due to Diesel engines being forbidden on some categories due to payload or passenger capacity, with an exception granted for some 4WD models. A recent prevalence of direct injection as the downsizing becomes more relevant in Brazil makes it harder to convert most cars to CNG nowadays.

On a sidenote, the local importer of Kia recently announced the Sorento will come back to Brazil, where the 1st generation had been the only one to feature an optional turbodiesel engine, while the 2nd and 3rd were brought as gassers only. The facelifted 4th generation however is coming as a turbodiesel only.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

I guess some folks here might already know about Ford's first and failed attempt to downsize Diesel engines in trucks...


Only for the '97 model-year, the 2WD version of the Brazilian F-1000 resorted to a 2.5L turbodiesel made in Argentina, and based on an original design from Land Rover...