Design Ideas on a car for primary highway use

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...huh? I liked the second generation of Corvairs, especially the turbocharged Corsica!

Oh Man you slay me!

[RobertSmalls]

Big Dave has just identified the reason every car maker has a midsized sedan, but none have excellent high-mpg cars. Arguably no major carmaker has ever released one, when you compare what's been produced to what easily could have been produced.

In order for a major automaker to build a tiny, streamlined highway commuter, several things must happen. First, the market for a very high MPG car must be much larger than it currently is. A spike in the price of fuel would help, and so will the ongoing trend of green = cool. Second, the public must be taught, through advertisements and the actions of celebrities, that streamlining and wheel skirts are okay. Third, the automaker must have a suitable platform already used in other cars. A dedicated platform would be very expensive, but a teardropped and wheel-skirted "Chevy Corsa XXFI" with a parts-bin three cylinder is not beyond the realm of imagination, especially if carmakers can count on oil to become expensive, and remain expensive.

[Frank Lee]

I'm not gonna buy into Dave's list. Metro has proven that the American public will buy a car w/o power steering, a/c, etc. I sure wish my car wasn't saddled with that junk.

That the Metro succeeded at all is amazing, given the times (high-rolling '90s) and especially given that Metro received approximately zero marketing support.

[cfg83]

RobertSmalls -

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

Big Dave has just identified the reason every car maker has a midsized sedan, but none have excellent high-mpg cars. Arguably no major carmaker has ever released one, when you compare what's been produced to what easily could have been produced.

In order for a major automaker to build a tiny, streamlined highway commuter, several things must happen. First, the market for a very high MPG car must be much larger than it currently is. A spike in the price of fuel would help, and so will the ongoing trend of green = cool. Second, the public must be taught, through advertisements and the actions of celebrities, that streamlining and wheel skirts are okay. Third, the automaker must have a suitable platform already used in other cars. A dedicated platform would be very expensive, but a teardropped and wheel-skirted "Chevy Corsa XXFI" with a parts-bin three cylinder is not beyond the realm of imagination, especially if carmakers can count on oil to become expensive, and remain expensive.

I think you need Kei car style of legislation :

Kei car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kei car, K-car, or keijidōsha (軽自動車?, lit. "light automobile") (pronounced /keːdʑidoːɕa/), is a Japanese category of small city cars, including passenger cars, vans, and pickup trucks. They are designed to exploit local tax and insurance relaxations, and in more rural areas are exempted from the requirement to certify that adequate parking is available for the vehicle.[1][2] These standards originated in the times following the end of the Second World War, when most Japanese could not afford a full-sized car yet had enough to buy a motorcycle. To promote the growth of the car industry, as well as to offer an alternative delivery method to small business and shop owners, kei car standards were created.

But instead of just small city cars, the legislation should also favor aero-commuters.

CarloSW2

[cfg83]

Frank -

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I'm not gonna buy into Dave's list. Metro has proven that the American public will buy a car w/o power steering, a/c, etc. I sure wish my car wasn't saddled with that junk.

That the Metro succeeded at all is amazing, given the times (high-rolling '90s) and especially given that Metro received approximately zero marketing support.

Building on RobertSmalls Chevy Corsa proposal, look at how close the Corsa B is to the Metro :



And it's still in production!

CarloSW2

[Frank Lee]

Looks like a weiner!

[Bicycle Bob]

GM bought and sold enough Metros to fine - tune their Corporate Average Fuel Economy and stay legal. Owning one has always made sure that one has few status-conscious friends. To popularise efficient cars, they might be allowed in car-pool lanes on the basis of gallons per passenger mile. Even better, to really raise status, they could be given a speed-limit exemption, based on efficiency and lower kinetic energy, or public danger.

[chuckm]

Originally Posted by zman

In response to ALS question about the limiting design parameters I came up with the following which would make it a realistic production car:

Target price equal to current mid range sedans. $17000 to $25000

4 passanger
Use as many stock parts as possible - steering, suspension, interior, wheels, exhaust, emmision, electronics, cluster - would be mostly components from current production cars

Unibody made from standard materials and standard manufacturing processes - welded sheetmetal and plastic components.

Power plant: currently avilable technology

Target range :500 - 600 miles

Target FE: 60+ at 65 mph

I think this is exactly what V-Vehicle, the new car company (the one that is trying to locate in my hometown), is doing.
CRAFTING V-VEHICLE | thenewsstar.com | The News Star See the top of the third page particularly. If they are bringing the suppliers onboard during design, I suspect that they are going to use parts already in production (or parts requiring minimum changeover from existing production runs). However, the V-vehicle price point is planned to be around $10k.

[Big Dave]

I suspect the boys at V-Vehicle are finding out the same thing that Aptera found out: It ain’t easy starting a car company, even if you do everything right.

Wait til they find out it will take two years to get a permit to build the paint shop.

How many fledgling (and established) car companies have died because they could not keep up on the core competency of making engines? Kaiser, Tucker, DeLorean, Hudson, AMC, Studebaker, Packard, etc.

The last car company started from scratch in the US: Chevrolet in 1911 and it took one of the giants of the industry to do it.

Part of what kills high-MPG cars in general is that they have to be low-priced. Ford, Chrysler and Government Motors have a huge problem with any new model. Due to legacy costs, the car has to make a minimum profit of $5,000 per unit and sell at least 100,000 units a year just to break even and cover legacy costs. The dirty little secret of the auto biz is that all cars and trucks cost about the same - plus or minus $500 – to build. The manufacturing technology is very mature and there really is surprisingly little waste. The big cost variable: leather seats.

Yeah, what they don’t tell you is that the little 2.0 Ecotec costs about the same for the companies to make as a seven-liter LS7.

People will pay $40,000 for a big diesel pickup but they simply won’t pay that for a tandem 1.5 liter 80 MPG car. Even the MPG purists on this board would choke on a super-expensive high-MPG car. That’s why the carbon-fiber VW coffin will never be produced.

Now, if you could knock that $5,000 legacy cost out, a $12,000 special-purpose car might have a chance of selling and making a buck. That is why I was disappointed when GM and Chrysler were not properly liquidated. Somebody could have bought the vertical integration and manufacturing capability on the cheap and gotten out from under the legacy costs and maybe, just maybe a competitive US small car could be possible.

As to Frank Lee’s comments:
If you live far enough “up north” I suppose you don’t need an air conditioner. If you live far enough “down south,” you probably don’t need a heater. But a manufacturer who thinks he is going to sell at least 100,000 units has to address both extremes. This is a huge hurdle for battery-electric cars. Fiats and Yugos failed in the US because for the life of them Fiat could not figure out how to make a decent heater.

Back in the 1970s I had a Cosworth Vega. A 2,200 lb car. Armstrong steering, 290 A/C, and leadfoot brakes. The heater was (like on most GM cars) very good. The thing was a pain to park despite having dinky little BR70-13 tires and weighing just over a ton. Black on black. A oven in the summer if you got caught in traffic and if you could keep going it was a convection oven. Very good performance for the day. The kind of car a twentysomething could love. You probably couldn’t give 100,000 units of the thing away today.

BTW, that car had some sort of magical factory undercoating. Vegas were notoriously rust-prone, but that particular car is licensed today in Ohio. The guy won’t sell it. I’ve tried.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

I suspect the boys at V-Vehicle are finding out the same thing that Aptera found out: It ain’t easy starting a car company, even if you do everything right.

Wait til they find out it will take two years to get a permit to build the paint shop.

The last car company started from scratch in the US: Chevrolet in 1911 and it took one of the giants of the industry to do it.

Um, no there have been more. One example The place that made my Commutacar was #5 sized auto manufacturer in the 70's and they were shuttered due to government regulations, specifically ride height oddly enough. discontinous run from 73-82 with special purpose offroaders made through 86. Started as Vanguard Sebring which was making electric vehicles as far back as the mid 60's, sadly not much information on them before the flowers era.

Originally Posted by Big Dave

The kind of car a twentysomething could love. You probably couldn’t give 100,000 units of the thing away today.

BTW, that car had some sort of magical factory undercoating. Vegas were notoriously rust-prone, but that particular car is licensed today in Ohio. The guy won’t sell it. I’ve tried.

Give me 100,000 units of Vegas, I'll take them.