Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-30-2016, 02:29 AM   #1 (permalink)
Permanent Apprentice
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: norcal oosae
Posts: 523
Thanks: 351
Thanked 295 Times in 212 Posts
disruptive technology - following standards

As an introduction to the topic, I just bought a 2013 Fiat 500e.

It's an awesome fun little EV with a 24kWh liquid-cooled battery pack and an 83kW BLDC motor. It's quick and sporty and has a 90mile range - actually better than the Leaf!

The down side is that it has had some random shut-down problems that can only be fixed by bringing it to the dealer for re-programming.

No big deal right - I mean, I'm an Ecomodder. I'll just plug in my OBD scanner and see what's going on, right?

NOOOOOOO!!!!! After a bit of research, I found that's a good way to "brick" the car! In fact, that has happened to two people, one who was driving down the freeway at the time.

That's right - according to the engineer who did the original programming, the CEO of Chrysler apparantly wanted to make sure the car COULDN'T be worked on by anyone else.

Because EV's are not "emissions vehicles," they don't have to comply with the OBD2 standards. This is why EV's are not accessable by standard OBD2 scanners.

Anyone who has worked with both IC cars and EV's knows that EV's are actually simpler than modern IC engines. It should be possible to use the existing CAN bus technology to communicate with both IC and EV systems.

It seems Chrysler is using their same proprietary communication devices for the Fiat 500's. In other words, the hardware is the same, there's just something in the software to insure various commands absolutely DON'T go to the 500e's controller.

They are using this simple fact to scare people away from attempting to tune the car or fix things.

The truth behind this is that it is only the CAN messages that are causing both the intermittent problems AND the problems with standard OBD2 scanners. The controller's lack of CAN filtering ability is giving certain random CAN messages too high of a priority - one that will completely shut down the controller.

A good solution to the problem would be to log what's going on before the problem occurs. This would be possible with an off the shelf OBD2 data logger. However, this is not possible because of the STUPID decisions made by the CEO to ensure the car won't be a success.

So, the disruptive technology is to back-engineer the controller and other modules so that they will operate off standard OBD2 CAN messages. Thoughts?

There are many CAN messages used by IC engines that will never be used in an EV. If the EV community could get together and agree on which ones to "share" the whole process could be pretty easy. Thoughts?

- E*clipse

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-30-2016, 11:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 7,908

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 180
Thanked 2,524 Times in 1,971 Posts
So an EVs drive line should have been simpler to work on than ICE drive line. But the manufacturers made sure that wasn't the case.
The more I lean about mass market electric vehicles the less I like them.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
Fingie (10-30-2016), Xist (11-18-2016)
Old 10-30-2016, 11:49 AM   #3 (permalink)
Volvo-driving MachYeen
 
Fingie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Finland
Posts: 789

Neo Volvo - '98 Volvo S70 10V
90 day: 24.98 mpg (US)
Thanks: 298
Thanked 82 Times in 68 Posts
that's why I've thought about schooling myself in EV technology.

Last self-fixability gets taken away.
__________________
If you don't make any mistakes in your life,
life itself will be a f*ckup.



With Volvo to Valhalla and back!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2016, 11:59 AM   #4 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
Posts: 833
Thanks: 36
Thanked 207 Times in 173 Posts
end of world life threatening theories abound. ignore them especially if they are internet derived.

mostly I believe you have a propriety can bus communication system that does not pass all millions of sensor data to the el cheapo scanner you possess. Heck, my 2000 F250 has 497 sensors that only a dedicated ford diesel scanner will detect. No doubt chrysler has the same style of implementation. your honda (slur intended) based scanner just is talking in pigdin while the car is full oxford english.

get a decent ELM 327 obd dongle and a decent CAN sniffer application. I like and use Torque for OBD2, I don't have anything CAN, yet.
__________________
2000 F250 7.3 CC 20+ MPG @ 10000 #
2013 Golf tdi 47.5 mpg neutered, 1500 mi beer run
1988 Ranger EV Volt batts>> 18,000 MPG and climbing. Rag overhaul.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2016, 02:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 806 Times in 591 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
mostly I believe you have a propriety can bus communication system that does not pass all millions of sensor data to the el cheapo scanner you possess.
Having non-readable information on the bus is one thing, allowing ANY external input - whether from an "el cheapo" scanner or a hacker - to do bad things to the vehicle is quite another.
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jamesqf For This Useful Post:
e*clipse (11-08-2016), Xist (11-18-2016)
Old 10-30-2016, 02:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
Permanent Apprentice
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: norcal oosae
Posts: 523
Thanks: 351
Thanked 295 Times in 212 Posts
I won't be able to say anything more, as I am currently picking up the car.

The "theories" were based on statements made by folks who actually did plug the scanners in. The "theory" was posted by a real engineer who actually developed the system. I'm not sure one can get more real than that.

You have no idea what scanner I possess.

If you're willing to brick a car based on your unrealated "experience" with your pickup, have fun!!!

Having to drag a car 100 miles to the nearest tech who can fix my problem and then pay $500 for the favor is not my idea of fun.

I have used several scanners, for communication with a VW diesel, a Toyota V6, and my Honda Insight. They worked fine for everything but the VW diesel. Fortunately, they didn't cause problems with the VW. That is a perfect example of what I am attempting to say here - one should be able to plug in a generic scanner and NOT damage the system.

The suggestion of obtaining a good CAN sniffer is definitely a good idea. It's going to require a lot of backing out what the CAN codes actually mean.

- E*clipse



Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
end of world life threatening theories abound. ignore them especially if they are internet derived.

mostly I believe you have a propriety can bus communication system that does not pass all millions of sensor data to the el cheapo scanner you possess. Heck, my 2000 F250 has 497 sensors that only a dedicated ford diesel scanner will detect. No doubt chrysler has the same style of implementation. your honda (slur intended) based scanner just is talking in pigdin while the car is full oxford english.

get a decent ELM 327 obd dongle and a decent CAN sniffer application. I like and use Torque for OBD2, I don't have anything CAN, yet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2016, 04:35 PM   #7 (permalink)
Permanent Apprentice
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: norcal oosae
Posts: 523
Thanks: 351
Thanked 295 Times in 212 Posts
Exactly.

Kind of like someone barging in, speaking "pidgin" and freaking out a roomful of sophisticated Chrysler people speaking "full oxford english." The solution of the sophisticated Chrysler people? PANIC throw your hands in the air and run out of the room!!

- E*clipse

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Having non-readable information on the bus is one thing, allowing ANY external input - whether from an "el cheapo" scanner or a hacker - to do bad things to the vehicle is quite another.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2016, 11:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 6,829

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 28.07 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.08 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,236
Thanked 2,615 Times in 1,934 Posts
I would catapult my Fiat into their headquarters before I paid $500 to fix something that shouldn't have broken in the first place, especially since you didn't try something unreasonable. There should be a warning in big red letters if connecting a typical OBD2 reader to it will cause it to brick. Heck, there should be an orange cap with a warning imprinted on it.

That said, I assume EV comm protocols to progress like all emerging tech, which is to say that they will initially have proprietary protocols until clear winners and standards emerge. Even then, you will likely have some weirdo manufacturers that refuse to utilize industry accepted standards. I'm thinking of the Apple car here. They will invent their own stuff instead of utilizing USB so they can make another fortune in the accessory market. We'll all run out and buy the Apple car, because a single button is sexy and within our technical ability to operate.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to redpoint5 For This Useful Post:
e*clipse (11-08-2016), Xist (11-18-2016)
Old 11-15-2016, 02:19 PM   #9 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 14,328
Thanks: 3,542
Thanked 4,736 Times in 3,770 Posts
Quote:
I won't be able to say anything more,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko
end of world life threatening theories
Quote:
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf
Having non-readable information on the bus...
Top posting makes my head hurt. Follow jamesqf's example.

What I wonder is how they do it. Maybe if you peek but don't poke?

I'd look to EVTV, but I don't know if they have addressed the issue. Maybe their EVTV Motor Verks Store: OBDII Breakout Box, CAN Tools, obdiibreakout or the EVTV Motor Verks Store: OBDII to RS232 Serial DB-9 Connector, CAN Tools, obdIIdb9?
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to freebeard For This Useful Post:
e*clipse (11-18-2016), Xist (11-18-2016)
Old 11-18-2016, 02:26 AM   #10 (permalink)
Permanent Apprentice
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: norcal oosae
Posts: 523
Thanks: 351
Thanked 295 Times in 212 Posts
good tip!

Thanks freebeard!

That's a big help - I'll check it out!

- e*clipse

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Top posting makes my head hurt. Follow jamesqf's example.

What I wonder is how they do it. Maybe if you peek but don't poke?

I'd look to EVTV, but I don't know if they have addressed the issue. Maybe their EVTV Motor Verks Store: OBDII Breakout Box, CAN Tools, obdiibreakout or the EVTV Motor Verks Store: OBDII to RS232 Serial DB-9 Connector, CAN Tools, obdIIdb9?

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Tags
can bus, controller, electric vehicle

Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com