Do heavy planes really consume more fuel?

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

... and the 747 would arrive at the destination much sooner than the Cherokee...

Well, that depends on your destination, doesn't it? If you want to to travel to say Smiley Creek (in Idaho), or even Sun Valley, that 747 isn't going to get you within a couple hours drive. Not to mention that the Cherokee leaves when I want it to, not when the airlines decide to schedule a flight :-)

[slowmover]

Watched that rara avis -- a C5 Galaxy -- climb out of Westover in Massachusetts a few days ago.

The utility of an airplane is what matters. Carrying people is pretty low value. There's no end to their numbers. But carrying particular goods or equipment is how to determine value.

The 1973 airlift into Israel is case in point.

Time to carry goods. All else is secondary.

[freebeard]

Carrying people is pretty low value. There's no end to their numbers.

Wow. I'd have gone with "No matter where you go, there you are."

The 1973 airlift into Israel is case in point.

Made me look. I started with https://www.google.com/search?q=historic+airlift. Nothing on Israel in the first 8 pages. I expected the Berlin Airlift of course, but right up there was the 1990 airlift of "1,70,000" people:
The Story of Airlift - The Largest Air Evacuation Effort In History

Then there was a story about repatriating 33 circus lions to Africa.

First mention of Israel on page 8 was a story about airlifting 19 Yemeni to Israel last week (http://www.thejc.com/news/israel-news/155129/secret-airlift-ends-historic-mission-bring-yemenis-home. The tag end of Operation Magic Carpet from 1949.

Groceries, people and lions. You meant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass?

22,325 tons over 32 days.

The Berlin Airlift was

...over 200,000 flights in one year, providing to the West Berliners up to 8,893 tons of necessities each day...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade#Berlin_airlift

Edit: At the risk of going off-topic, I looked at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_evacuations

• July–August 1998 - Nearly 14 million people were evacuated because of massive flooding and landslides in north and central China, and 5.6 million houses were destroyed. An additional 300,000 people were evacuated on August 7 in anticipation of a possible breach of dikes along the Yangtze River. (This is the one where China was air-bombing their own dams to divert flooding!)
• 13 August to 11 October 1990 - During the 1990 airlift of Indians from Kuwait Air India entered the Guinness Book of World Records for the most people evacuated by a civil airliner. Over 170,000 people were evacuated from Amman to Mumbai– a distance of 4,117 km- via 488 flights operated by Indian Airlines. The operation was carried out during the Persian Gulf War to evacuate Indian expatriates from Kuwait and Iraq. (Mentioned above)

This century has been brutal:

• June 2013 - Nearly 1,000,000 people evacuated in 12 days from Uttarakhand, India due to a flash flood and landslide. This operation was completed by the Indian Air Force, ITBP, NDRF, and local authorities. Helicopters were widely used because road networks were severely damaged.
• October 2013 - Nearly 850,000 people were evacuated in 3 days from the coastal areas of Odisha (more than 750,000) and Andhra Pradesh (nearly 90,000) in the face of Cyclone Phailin. This operation was completed by the Indian Air Force, ITBP, NDRF, and local authorities.
• December 2014 - Nearly 1,000,000 people were evacuated in the eastern Philippines before typhoon Hagupit

[slowmover]

Military airlift in October 1973.

Governments rescuing people is only good PR. It reinforces the perceived value of said government and, by extension, the military. One can easily argue other factors should have put into play first. But that tends to keep gov cronies from extracting any and all cash value, first. Or, why infrastructure is neglected.

Rail and ships are the only reasonable way to move large numbers of people.

High value goods are the airplanes natural forte.

[freebeard]

Military airlift in October 1973.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nickel_Grass

Governments rescuing people is only good PR. It reinforces the perceived value of said government and, by extension, the military. One can easily argue other factors should have put into play first. But that tends to keep gov cronies from extracting any and all cash value, first. Or, why infrastructure is neglected.

^^^There's your rabbit hole

Rail and ships are the only reasonable way to move large numbers of people.

High value goods are the airplanes natural forte.[/QUOTE]

Hyperloop? IMHO people and bombs should stay put.

[slowmover]

Overseas military staging points have been greatly expanded since 1973. Diego Garcia best example. And the C17 is one helluva hotrod STOL transport.

On the contrary, the SS United States has been rusting away at Philadelphia since about 1971.

An airplane has a limited number of cycles. Using them in disaster relief is something only a government can afford.

[JRMichler]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Well, that depends on your destination, doesn't it? If you want to to travel to say Smiley Creek (in Idaho), or even Sun Valley, that 747 isn't going to get you within a couple hours drive. Not to mention that the Cherokee leaves when I want it to, not when the airlines decide to schedule a flight :-)

Small planes get to fly direct routes. I once flew a Cessna 172 from Oshkosh, Wisconsin to Jackson Hole, Wyoming and back. Flight out was 12 hours flying time plus two half hour gas stops, flight back 9 hours plus one half hour gas stop. Commercial air would have been 16 hours each way.

Passenger miles per gallon is not a good comparison because the small plane route was nearly a straight line, while commercial air was three flights covering a much longer distance.

An even better example was a trip from Madison, Wisconsin direct to Grand Haven, Michigan. No good way to get there by commercial air. The driving route was twice the distance and went through Chicago.

And most small planes have more leg and seat room than coach class in modern airliners.

[Xist]

Originally Posted by freebeard

IMHO people and bombs should stay put.

I throw my grenades, thank you very much!

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by slowmover

On the contrary, the SS United States has been rusting away at Philadelphia since about 1971.

Thanks for mentioning the USS United States. There's good news: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Uni...d_reactivation

I looked it up, but I was conflating it with another hospital ship, the NS Savannah.

"Eisenhower desired a "peace ship" that would serve as an ambassador for the peaceful use of atomic power. According to an Eisenhower administration statement to Congress "The President seeks no return on this vessel except the goodwill of men everywhere ... Neither will the vessel be burdened by proving itself commercially feasible by carrying goods exclusively." Although initial proposals used a copy of USS Nautilus's power plant, a conscious decision was made to design a propulsion system with no connection to military programs, to commercial design standards."

Too cheap to meter!

Originally Posted by ibid

An airplane has a limited number of cycles. Using them in disaster relief is something only a government can afford.

I say end-of-life all of them into Syria (currently), park them in a snowflake configuration and turn them into condominiums.

Say what you will about the Daily Fail, but they cover this story with 16 pictures and 2 videos:

Plane sailing! Decommissioned Boeing 767 passenger jet is tugged out to sea ready to be transformed into a GLAMPING venue in Ireland

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JRMichler

Passenger miles per gallon is not a good comparison because the small plane route was nearly a straight line, while commercial air was three flights covering a much longer distance.

Good point. To fly Portland to Phoenix on JetBlue requires a quick layover in NY. You have to fly across the entire country just to board another plane and fly across again!

I did it once, but that was when I had 1 month of unlimited flights with JetBlue.