Do we really need all that safety stuff?

[Hersbird]

That sounds nice and all, but almost nothing meets your criteria, certainly not automotive safety requirements. Look up lists of most important issues and many of the things I listed come up on there but automotive safety doesn't even meet the threshold to make a list of 50.

[Hersbird]

Eliminate the requirements to meet US standards and they would import them in a heartbeat, and they would sell. Maybe not 100,000s but they would sell. People would have choices, it is just not an option now but not because of no demand but because of outlawed supply.
Elio is getting around everything by being a motorcycle. Maybe move production to Korea, India, or China and it might get done and be no doubt less then $7500.

[niky]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

That sounds nice and all, but almost nothing meets your criteria, certainly not automotive safety requirements.

What criteria? All I care about is that a car has seatbelts, a reasonably efficient engine and good chassis rigidity. A safety cell doesn't just make crashes more survivable... it makes a car much more fun to drive, since it allows the suspension to work properly.

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Look up lists of most important issues and many of the things I listed come up on there but automotive safety doesn't even meet the threshold to make a list of 50.

Why would it?

What kind of survey was it? Was it a survey about important automotive issues? Was it even a survey about transportation in general?

No.

This is like saying: "We don't need antibiotics because people don't think it's the most important issue facing us, right now."

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I've been writing in this industry for a long while. One of my first editors in the biz was in market research, and we've had many long talks over lunch. And I can guarantee you that safety is one of the biggest concerns of people who actually buy cars.

As in here, for example:
2014 Car Brand Perception Survey | Best Car Brands - Consumer Reports

Important factors in buying a new car

This list ranks the seven key factors by how important they are to consumers when buying a new car. The percentage is based on the number of respondents who said the factor was among their top three priorities. For comparison, we’ve included last year’s figures.

Factor
2014 (%) 2013 (%)
Quality
90 90
Safety
88 88
Performance
83 83
Value
82 83
Fuel economy
81 81
Design/style
70 65
Technology/innovation
68 65

I've talked to hundreds of customers looking for cars, and believe me, safety gets brought up a lot.

Also, as RedDevil notes: our secondhand "safe" cars are actually a big headache for your $5k car. The reason cars like the Tata Nano and the cheaper Chinese aren't selling is because most people would rather buy a "safe" decade old Toyota Corolla than an "unsafe" tin can.

Guess what it took for Chinese cars to finally start selling outside of China? They paid attention to factors 1 and 2 on the CR list. And since they've done that, they've started selling in earnest.

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Of course, nothing they sell nowadays is near as cheap as you're asking for. Quality and Safety come at a price.

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And people in China? They still won't buy Chinese cars. Because, frankly, they're scared to death of them.

Originally Posted by Hersbird

Eliminate the requirements to meet US standards and they would import them in a heartbeat, and they would sell. Maybe not 100,000s but they would sell. People would have choices, it is just not an option now but not because of no demand but because of outlawed supply.
Elio is getting around everything by being a motorcycle. Maybe move production to Korea, India, or China and it might get done and be no doubt less then $7500.

I doubt people would buy them. At least not in big enough numbers to make it worth anyone's while to import them.

Try looking up how well the Zap Xebra did.

There's also a micro-Jeep with a Chery 1.0 imported and sold under an American brand. As a UTV, it easily bypasses most road-legality requirements. UTV enthusiasts, however, have panned it due to poor quality and durability. Even people buying sub-$10k vehicles have standards.

[Hersbird]

You are all over the map.
the list of percentages adds up to WAY over 100%, and only shows that value is about as important as safety. Right now the level of safety is pretty much equal as I would say value is as well. If you are buying a new car you are spending a bunch of money, then you end up financing, then you start checking extra boxes because it doesn't look like much more per month. Now put a Datson Go out there for $5000 or a Nana for $3000 and it's like having cars that are much, much safer then others or much, much more reliable.
We will never know if people would buy that stuff because it is not allowed.
I would spend $5000 on a Datson Go in a heartbeat and I doubt it's just me.
face it you are not pro choice and want to force your religion on my body.

[RedDevil]

Apparently most people have more than 3 top three priorities
I would pick at least four from that list too.

But whatever the story behind the numbers, it seems obvious that the majority of people value quality and safety over other properties.
And there are indeed a few who dont.

[Frank Lee]

Apparently most people have more than 3 top three priorities

It's my observation that people have two main priorities: 1) reproducing and 2) driving. Most everything else is done in support of 1 and 2.

[RedDevil]

That is true, but not what people say when asked what their top priorities are when considering what factors are most important when buying a new car.

They say safety while in reality they rather do a number 1 then and there.

[Frank Lee]

They say safety then text while speeding off.

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

It's my observation that people have two main priorities: 1) reproducing and 2) driving. Most everything else is done in support of 1 and 2.

LMAO

[niky]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

You are all over the map.

All over the map in what way? My opinion on the matter has nothing to do with what I'm posting. All I'm doing is pointing out market realities.

Originally Posted by Hersbird

the list of percentages adds up to WAY over 100%, and only shows that value is about as important as safety. Right now the level of safety is pretty much equal as I would say value is as well.

More like 300%, since that's three choices. CR overshoots that by another 300%, but without detailed methodology, we don't know how they weighted the answers.

And remember, value does not mean cheap. It means people expect something for their money, as so:

2014 Car Brand Perception Survey | Best Car Brands - Consumer Reports

Consumers remain value conscious, looking to get the most for their money. With cars, that means looking beyond the purchase price to what the vehicle delivers for that cash. Here, we see consistent year-over-year rankings, with the same five automakers topping the chart.

Toyota
Honda
Ford
Kia
Chevrolet

*They conveniently gloss over the fact that Hyundai was top five in 2013... because Hyundai and Kia are basically the same candy in different wrappers.

You'll note that the manufacturers with the cheapest cars, Nissan and Mitsubishi, are not up there, while Toyota and Honda, generally regarded as the most expensive of the Japanese mass manufacturers, are at the top.

Originally Posted by Hersbird

We will never know if people would buy that stuff because it is not allowed.
I would spend $5000 on a Datson Go in a heartbeat and I doubt it's just me.
face it you are not pro choice and want to force your religion on my body.

For one thing, I have no religion. For another, I don't roll that way.

Further, I dislike artificial trade barriers and market-distorting legislation. I think you should be able to buy whatever you want, whether or not it meets CARB requirements or possesses a two-stage passenger bag. I'm simply pointing out that not enough customers will buy the cars you're pining for to convince manufacturers to sell them in volume in the US. Not at the prices they're selling at.

Let's see how the Go and Nano are selling in India, a country where minimum wage is 1/20th of America's:

January 2015 : Indian Car Sales Figures & Analysis - Team-BHP

No, they're not selling all that well. (Not surprising to me, I've been following Indian sales and the disappointment of the Nano for quite a while). And that's because even third-worlders value quality, reliability and safety, as here:

Small car sales may accelerate over next 5 years: KPMG survey | The Financial Express

Note that different market conditions distort the study. Economy ranks over quality/reliability and safety in India because gasoline costs a whole lot more when you're making a whole lot less than the typical American.

The emphasis on safety also helps (partially) explain the dip in Datsun Go sales in November:


As that's the time Max Mosley and his Global NCAP program tried to shame Nissan into pulling it off the market due to a "zero star" crash rating. Mosley has been trying to pressure India to get on board the NCAP program. If he has his way, goodbye $6k Go.

The Nano has never sold well. When you're building a $4k car, you cut a lot of corners. We third-world buyers may be poor, but we're not going to buy a four-wheeled fire hazard over a motorbike or a more rugged, dependable Suzuki-Maruti Alto. You could fit the Nano with ABS, airbags and a stiffer crash structure while still staying under $6k. It still won't sell, because it is a relatively inefficient, noisy, under-performing piece of cow dung.

The Maruti Alto is an interesting counterpoint. It sells well in India (it basically outsells the Toyota brand) because it's Indian-made, rugged, cheap and economical. But it sells terribly elsewhere.

We have them here in the Philippines... a country with no crash regulations or airbag requirements, and with a minimum wage twice that of India. They cost a third of what a Yaris does, yet sell in small numbers.

Because we have richer buyers. And richer buyers don't like buying spartan, unsafe cars. Cheap-ass buyers, on the other hand, do what cheap-ass buyers the world over do... take one look at the price and decide that, all things equal, they'd rather buy a secondhand Toyota. Preferably one with airbags. (Me, I'd drive an Alto every day... lovely fuel economy. Unfortunately my wife hates them)

Now go up to Americans, with ten times the money, and over fifty years worth of used cars to pick from... what do you think will happen?

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Looking at the sales, the cheapest you can go with the American market while seeing reasonable success is the Versa. The Mirage, one segment lower, is still an outlier, and unless sales improve drastically, I doubt anyone will want to bring in sub-Mirage cars. There are two distinct market segments underneath the Mirage, (Nano/Alto sized and Go/Spark sized) and it will take a long time for the buying public to warm up to cars that small. If they warm up to them at all.