Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-18-2019, 07:32 AM   #1 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Poland
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Driving MPSM motor

Hi

Checking aplication notes from Atmel/Microchip or NXP, I found some ways to control PMSM motors, by PMSM I mean DC motor with sinosuidal back EMF.

1. way is to use SVM, with 3 Hall sensors and sine table - AVR447: Sinusoidal driving of three-phase permanent magnet motor using ATmega48/88/168

2. way is to use SVM but with Clark/Park transforms

Which way to go to run my Lexus 50kW MGR ?

  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MPP2007 For This Useful Post:
freebeard (08-29-2019)
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 06-18-2019, 12:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
Thalmaturge
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: The edge of nowhere
Posts: 1,165

Spicy Italian - '13 Fiat 500 Abarth

eBike - '94 Trek Mountain Track 820

CHONK - '18 Honda Clarity
Thanks: 766
Thanked 643 Times in 429 Posts
Well that's a hell of a first post.

I looked it up, and
https://www.microchip.com/design-cen...chronous-motor
Quote:
The Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor (PMSM) is an AC synchronous motor whose field excitation is provided by permanent magnets, and has a sinusoidal Back EMF waveform.
SVM is Space Vector Modulation

https://www.mathworks.com/solutions/...ransforms.html
Quote:
The Clarke transform converts the time domain components of a three-phase system (in abc frame) to two components in an orthogonal stationary frame (αβ). The Park transform converts the two components in the αβ frame to an orthogonal rotating reference frame (dq). Implementing these two transforms in a consecutive manner simplifies computations by converting AC current and voltage waveform into DC signals.
None of this is helpful to you, but yay! I'm learning. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable then me will be along shortly.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to samwichse For This Useful Post:
Xist (06-21-2019)
Old 06-19-2019, 04:20 AM   #3 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Poland
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I did some tests on this motor connected to simple V/Hz inverter. (Dinverter 0,25 kW). It starts at 4Hz with very slow motion. Due lack of power and internal current limits of inverter, I can’t spin it to higher rpm.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	78E4BA24-F491-4799-91AB-D04F1AEECD56.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	43.3 KB
ID:	26234  
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2019, 12:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Saskatoon, canada
Posts: 1,488

Ford Prefect - '18 Ford F150 XLT XTR

Tess - '22 Tesla Y LR
Thanks: 746
Thanked 565 Times in 447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPP2007 View Post
Hi

Checking aplication notes from Atmel/Microchip or NXP, I found some ways to control PMSM motors, by PMSM I mean DC motor with sinosuidal back EMF.

1. way is to use SVM, with 3 Hall sensors and sine table - AVR447: Sinusoidal driving of three-phase permanent magnet motor using ATmega48/88/168

2. way is to use SVM but with Clark/Park transforms

Which way to go to run my Lexus 50kW MGR ?
Hi

I don't have access to the source code from work (where I'm reading this) ... so this is all from memory (which is not that great, and I didn't understand all of what Paul was doing when he did explain it)

With that disclaimer ... here is what I remember

Paul Holmes uses an encoder for rotor position. It is closer to your option 2. The encoder position is used to figure out where the rotor is with relation to the position of the stator flux. Getting them to the same units so that they can be compared requires 2 sets of calculations. The Park transform is one of them. Another ... 2 equations? .. to take the error in rotor position and reflect that back to a torque current setpoint, and from there combined with the magnetizing current to get a voltage setpoint and the PWM timing.

The hall sensors are likely more accurate than a separate external encoder. But I don't have information on which of your 2 options would be easier, or which would give you better control
__________________
In THEORY there is no difference between Theory and Practice
In PRACTICE there IS!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2019, 12:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Saskatoon, canada
Posts: 1,488

Ford Prefect - '18 Ford F150 XLT XTR

Tess - '22 Tesla Y LR
Thanks: 746
Thanked 565 Times in 447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPP2007 View Post
I did some tests on this motor connected to simple V/Hz inverter. (Dinverter 0,25 kW). It starts at 4Hz with very slow motion. Due lack of power and internal current limits of inverter, I can’t spin it to higher rpm.
There are a couple of guys on this forum

http://openinverter.org/forum

that will understand what you are talking about .. and will likely have opinions for you. Johannes Hübner particularly ... he's the guy that works with Damien on his add-on /replacement boards for the Teslas, Leafs, etc
__________________
In THEORY there is no difference between Theory and Practice
In PRACTICE there IS!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2019, 07:57 PM   #6 (permalink)
PaulH
 
MPaulHolmes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Maricopa, AZ (sort of. Actually outside of town)
Posts: 3,832

Michael's Electric Beetle - '71 Volkswagen Superbeetle 500000
Thanks: 1,362
Thanked 1,202 Times in 765 Posts
For a 50kw motor I would definitely go with the space vector modulation and the field oriented control (clarke and park like thingstodo was saying). Then you can control the torque of the motor rather than the speed, which I think is better for driving around. The toyota mgr is also a highly "salient" motor, which means you need negative Id in order to get the maximum torque per amp, and the amount of Id varies as a function of the torque command.
__________________
kits and boards
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2019, 02:08 AM   #7 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 28,557
Thanks: 8,092
Thanked 8,881 Times in 7,329 Posts
Quote:
Which way to go to run my Lexus 50kW MGR ?
Is this by chance the rear axle from the LX400h? Because if it is, I'm very interested in your results. There is a thread from 2014 here: https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...mgr-29878.html

I tried to talk to Michael Bream at EVWest about using this or similar units (RAV4), but he was dismissive — saying they're designed to work as a hybrid and don't have enough torque. His customers 'want Tesla installs'.

Is the 4,000 rpm at no load?
__________________
.
.
Without freedom of speech we wouldn't know who all the idiots are. -- anonymous poster

____________________
.
.
Three conspiracy theorists walk into a bar --You can't say that is a coincidence.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2019, 12:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
Somewhat crazed
 
Piotrsko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: 1826 miles WSW of Normal
Posts: 4,371
Thanks: 528
Thanked 1,193 Times in 1,053 Posts
EV WEST tends to NIH. However, here they are kinda correct since hybrids have tended to use the motor as an asist, and their reputation is hipower $$$$ conversions
__________________
casual notes from the underground:There are some "experts" out there that in reality don't have a clue as to what they are doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2019, 01:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 28,557
Thanks: 8,092
Thanked 8,881 Times in 7,329 Posts
Quote:
...here they are kinda correct since hybrids have tended to use the motor as an asist...
To be fair, he did say he'd want to see dynamometer results. I suspect he was thinking of the MGR1 and MGR2 integrated with the ICE. The MGR3 is a stand-alone unit with 68hp compared to the Zelectric (typical?) 102hp at at least double the weight.

Due to his lack of interest, we never discussed the external oil cooler option.

__________________
.
.
Without freedom of speech we wouldn't know who all the idiots are. -- anonymous poster

____________________
.
.
Three conspiracy theorists walk into a bar --You can't say that is a coincidence.
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread






Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com