Drove a Leaf today

[tumnasgt]

Originally Posted by Stubone

Miles electric has a cost calculator that factors in the cost of the battery based on an estimate of it's life, if your comparing operating cost shouldn't that be a part of it.

Electric cars (not hybrids) have fewer parts than a fuel burning car, so I imagine that the price of a battery in ~10 years time would be comparable or less than the servicing and part replacement requirements of a normal car.

Hybrids are another story as they have all the normal ICE parts to fail as well as the electric bits. Prii seem to have shown that it's largely a non-issue (to my understanding anyway), but as each manufacturer is using different approaches to hybrids, each will have to prove its own reliability.

[SwamiSalami]

I'm with Neil about the DTEs.

Although, unfortunately my hypermiling wasn't good for ANY DTE improvement. Alas, this is obviously better than -DTE.

I wasn't impressed by the Leaf. In fact, the Leaf sucks.

I'm waiting for a hybrid diesel volvo station wagon. When that happens, you'll never see, hear or smell of me again.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by drees

But I've found with my LEAF I'm doing better than EPA estimates (never had that happen in a gas car) and getting around 28 kWh / 100 mi or $4.48 / 100 mi.

What is your average speed? I haven't seen anyone approaching that on the highway.
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I can't charge at work so the point is moot for me although I really like the MiEV. If they offered that car with the gas engine in the US I would be all over that when my Insight dies.

[drees]

Originally Posted by dieselbeetle

I wasn't impressed by the Leaf. In fact, the Leaf sucks.

How 'bout some facts or reasoning to back that up? One could easily say the exact same comment about anything.

Originally Posted by dieselbeetle

I'm waiting for a hybrid diesel volvo station wagon. When that happens, you'll never see, hear or smell of me again.

Every single internal combustion car around still stinks when cold started. My Prius does it. The new VW TDI that drove by me while jogging the other day did it. The only car that doesn't stink? My LEAF.

Originally Posted by sendler

What is your average speed? I haven't seen anyone approaching that on the highway.

Average speed is around 30 mph, it's a typical suburban commute around here. Speed limits are mostly 45-55 mph on my trip, but with frequent lights. Getting green lights is key to keeping efficiency up - you get surprised by a yellow light and have to stop quickly and that kills efficiency since you can't use full-regen to stop. I can see total trip efficiency drop by 20% by missing a few wrong lights - the slight downhill ones are the worst!

On the highway overall efficiency drops a bit, usually around 3.4-3.5 mi / kWh driving 60-70 mph (from the wall numbers). The dash readout doesn't account for charging losses, but appears to be remarkably consistent - just multiple by 85% to get from the wall numbers if L2 charging. If L1 charging, you have to use a lower multiplier (80%), charging that slow isn't as efficient.
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Originally Posted by sendler

I can't charge at work so the point is moot for me although I really like the MiEV. If they offered that car with the gas engine in the US I would be all over that when my Insight dies.

Hard to beat the Insight for a ~80 mi trip in terms of efficiency. Would love to see an electric Insight - the LEAF drivetrain in an Insight would make your comment with lots of room to spare even at freeway speeds. The LEAF simply has too much CdA for high speed travel! I bet the LEAF drivetrain in a Prius would do 10% more freeway range.

[sendler]

Using 3.3 miles / kWhr from the wall for the Leaf highway numbers does get the leaf past my gas car at 78mpgE (not energy but price) at the current pricing with gas at $3.80 and electric at .16 per kWhr. My Honda CBR250R is getting 82 lifetime and 87mpgUS in the summer so that is pretty good. If I can import a CBR125R I would be closer to mid 90's. I might be able to get the cost of electricity down with a demand meter but it's too bad the range won't make it for me. The biggest battery I can cram into a motorcycle is 7kWhr so that won't make it either. That might barely make it 39 miles at 66mph one way at 80%.

[DJBecker]

Originally Posted by tumnasgt

Electric cars (not hybrids) have fewer parts than a fuel burning car, so I imagine that the price of a battery in ~10 years time would be comparable or less than the servicing and part replacement requirements of a normal car.

My experience doesn't support this theory.

I bought my BMW new about 13 years ago. Since then the engine has needed only yearly oil changes, occasional coolant changes, and one new sensor that cost $42.

Overall, gasoline engines are very reliable and cost little to service compared to the rest of the car. There are always examples of reliability screw-ups for specific models and parts, but much of what goes wrong is elsewhere in the car even if it "feels" like it's the engine.

For instance my friend's Audi eats A/C compressors. It's averaging a new $550 one almost once a year. Yes, it's attached to the engine, and people might lump it in with engine repair costs. But an EV would need similar functionality. And odds are that a new design needed for EV use would be less reliable than a *typical* highly evolved compressor on an ICE. The same thing with power steering, the brake booster, heat, etc.

[SwamiSalami]

Originally Posted by drees

How 'bout some facts or reasoning to back that up? One could easily say the exact same comment about anything.

Every single internal combustion car around still stinks when cold started. My Prius does it. The new VW TDI that drove by me while jogging the other day did it. The only car that doesn't stink? My LEAF.

ha! I see your point. I don't mean any offense to anyone who drives a leaf. I just think that they lacked necessary personality to keep my interest. They're boring, basically. And yes, it is simply a matter of taste, not efficiency-wise.

And, I guess my reasoning for my distaste is justified, being that I've actually driven one. I'm not some poser who just says he doesn't like the leaf because I secretly want one or can't afford one or something. I honestly just think they're a bit unambitious. I'm waiting for something breathtaking, Being that my cars are paid for, its cheaper and better for the environment to continue with them, rather than get a new car.

Why did I go to the University of Central Florida's Nissan Leaf Demo?

So I could have an informed opinion about the car.




The "smell me" part of that post was meant to be a joke and had nothing to do with tailpipe emissions or the scent emitted by combustion engines. It was referring to the "see me" part of that line...Or did you think I meant that the station wagon would be invisible, too?

[Ladogaboy]

Originally Posted by DJBecker

My experience doesn't support this theory.

I bought my BMW new about 13 years ago. Since then the engine has needed only yearly oil changes, occasional coolant changes, and one new sensor that cost $42.

Overall, gasoline engines are very reliable and cost little to service compared to the rest of the car. There are always examples of reliability screw-ups for specific models and parts, but much of what goes wrong is elsewhere in the car even if it "feels" like it's the engine.

You are describing a best-case scenario. IF you do all of the maintenance yourself and IF you only change your oil once a year and IF you happen to not run into any of the myriad problems that a gasoline engine could face in 13 years, then yes, your costs might be less than the cost of replacing a battery.

However, you are obviously not representative of the general populace. Basic maintenance alone for the first 5 years of driving my car 15,000 miles a year would add up, and if you combine that with the money saved on fuel expenses, a replacement battery wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility.

If you want some objective numbers, compare the cost of ownership of the Leaf with one of the cheaper cars on the market:

2012 Nissan Leaf Electric 1-speed Direct Drive True Cost to Own

2012 Hyundai Accent 1.6L 4-cyl. 6-speed Manual True Cost to Own

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by drees

Uh, not sure how you're calculating that. The LEAF is EPA rated at 34 kWh / 100 mi.

So to drive 100 mi you use 34 kWh at $0.16 = $5.44.

2 gallons of gas cost you $7.

I was going to say that you have to factor in charging losses, but then you showed that you are even more familiar with these losses than me...

Originally Posted by drees

...The dash readout doesn't account for charging losses, but appears to be remarkably consistent - just multiple by 85% to get from the wall numbers if L2 charging. If L1 charging, you have to use a lower multiplier (80%), charging that slow isn't as efficient.

Of course, the price of electricity varies quite a lot, and in some places such as the pacific northwest, electricity is very cheap. I pay 8 cents per KWh. At half the cost quoted, going electric is very economical here.

[drees]

Originally Posted by dieselbeetle

I honestly just think they're a bit unambitious. I'm waiting for something breathtaking

I disagree - Nissan is the only manufacturer with a mass market EV - and it's been available in limited quantities for a year now. Aside from the Mitsubishi i (which is smaller, has less power, less range but is slightly more efficient because of it's size) it's the least expensive plug-in on the market right now.

To call that unambitious is being shortsighted. Breathtaking - no, it's definitely not that - you have to spend twice as much or more to get in line a Tesla Model S.

Yes - it's a bit soft in the handling department - but it's pretty clear that they were aiming for a very smooth and quiet ride.

Yes - it's could use more power - but it's pretty clear that they have limited this to ensure that the battery will last a long, long time.

Yes - it could use more range - but it's pretty clear that they have limited this to keep cost and weight down.

Originally Posted by dieselbeetle

Being that my cars are paid for, its cheaper and better for the environment to continue with them, rather than get a new car.

On a personal level, perhaps - but someone has to buy EVs out there to get them on the road. If you replaced yours hopefully your car would replace an inefficient clunker - it's not like you're throwing your car away.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I was going to say that you have to factor in charging losses, but then you showed that you are even more familiar with these losses than me...

Thanks - note that the EPA estimated numbers are all "from the wall" which include charging losses as well.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Of course, the price of electricity varies quite a lot, and in some places such as the pacific northwest, electricity is very cheap. I pay 8 cents per KWh. At half the cost quoted, going electric is very economical here.

Definitely - and in your area you also have the benefit of having the cleanest electricity around, too. You simply can't be an EV for price or environmental friendliness in your area unless you are riding a bike - nothing else even gets close.