Dual Fuel, electric rear wheel drive, gasoline front wheel drive

[evolutionmovement]

If you run the motor inline with the engine with a clutch between, you could probably ditch the starter as well. Save a little weight, but you'd lose a little redundancy in case of motor system failure. Could you then, too, if using an A/C motor, use it as an alternator while off throttle or when using the ICE?

Allch Chcar, it's totally off topic, but the idea for a manually operated CVT is to replicate the feel of a variable pitch prop on a 3-wheel tadpole vehicle that resembles a Gee Bee R1 fuselage with a Focke Wulf 190 canopy powered by a 7-cylinder radial engine under a NACA cowl. I thought it would be fun and efficiency and practicality have little to do with the design, but the 20k+ for the engine alone permanently shelves that idea. Even if I had that cash, I'd rather give it away. Maybe.

[aussie_modder]

Please accept my example and as example only (i based this example on the little amount that i have read about the Honda Insight (a small ICE with electric assist)..... i wished it to simply demonstrate one of the thousands of possible configurations that could be used dependant upon an individual's vehicle and driving requirements.

Me personally, in my old GMH automatic, i would love to try using the ICE to accelerate to 40 km/hr (using optimum throttle position, at which the transmission changes into top gear), then use the electric motor to assist up to 60km/hr; which is a little sluggish. That makes the best use of the torque of the engine/auto trans to accelerate to 40km/hr. Above 60 km/hr it accelerates quite well using the optimum throttle position (arrived upon by many years and kms of monitoring the 'grand daddy' vacuum gauge). Having said that, I'd love to verify this will some real time fuel consumption gauge. [sigh].

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by evolutionmovement

If you run the motor inline with the engine with a clutch between, you could probably ditch the starter as well. Save a little weight, but you'd lose a little redundancy in case of motor system failure. Could you then, too, if using an A/C motor, use it as an alternator while off throttle or when using the ICE?

The starter would indeed be removed. In case of motor/controller failure, the motor will be freewheeling and bumpstarting is still possible. Same workaround as a broken starter.

Removing the pulley and belt system and converting everything including the water pump to electric would be another modification as the motor would be designed to function for both powering the wheels at low speed and alternatively for generating electricity to the ECU, lights, powered items, etc during ICE cruising. All of those things are usually covered by an alternator that generates a maximum of 100 amps at 14volts. Since I'll probably forgo using the motor past a certain point, the batteries will only see a lot of recharging at low speed. The car would remain functionally an ICE powered car at cruising speed where an electric can't match the range liquid fuel provides. Controlling the power generation is something I'm looking in to as well. Otherwise the design wouldn't meet design specs. Outside of recharging the battery the system will need an estimated maximum of 200amps of 12volt power, after everything is converted to electric that is. And that's just as a bullet proof concept. It would probably work with less during cruising .

Aussie, it sounds like your engine is acting exactly inline with what I'm saying. At 40km/hr your engine is bogged down in top gear and it's underperforming and overworking itself. At 60km/hr you can use the ICE comfortably, accelerating or cruising. In both your case and mine, an electric motor that can maintain 60km/hr would be a great starting point for converting to a hybrid.

Please notice I'm avoiding mention of the use of gasoline. If I had it my way. The vehicle would not only be RWD, have an electric motor and batterypack, and two speed transmission. It'd use pure ethanol(in my case at least). Three things the automakers don't offer in one package.

I considered an AWD but the reports that even a manual transmission car suffers from 25% driveline losses which I know automatic cars get with only two wheel drive front or back. I say 15% is too much, we're talking about 10% more of our power and energy turning into unused heat for a little bit of convenience. Small things like that make our markets unsustainable and our governments chug from the corruption.

Sorry to rant and waste some of your time. But another thing, a FWD hybrid isn't a viable DIY project outside of a beer budget because a Prius is already very cost effective. All of the RWD hybrids are SUVs or trucks designed for the power increase. All electric sportscars are still just exotics. Sheesh, even the RWD cars are reserved for those who can afford a $20k vehicle. I'm thinking this system I'm developing/researching will be better suited to a low-end sports car that can be equipped with a 100hp ICE and 75kw electric motor. I'm also having second thoughts about retiring my Ranger. As great as OBDII is, the newer Rangers run more HP for the same economy and this project might work out better with an older DIY vehicle. I already know I can get flexfuel info from the 3.0L Rangers, the electric motor used in the electric ford ranger, and I can keep my RWD without doing extreme modification of a transverse compact car or selling out for a Mustang. I'm starting to smell the Roses of success in my future.

[theunchosen]

Best Bet for regen braking is to have 2 static positions for ease of use and to avoid motoring an engine somewhere.

I used to help a summer camp and we had an electric narrow gauge railroad 20 passenger cart. It was an aluminum flatbed with welded on assemblies that were seats/battery shields. You had forward and reverse power but then we switched it to neutral on the way back because it was down hill the whole way.

The cart had two, I can't think of the word for them, switches you lift to activate. Each put one of the two motors into braking. Under one click you would not really gain speed down a 2% grade with 20 people and lots of climbing hardware and lots of batteries. With both down it would lurch when you activated it and kept the cart at reasonably low speed.

I always coasted to high speed and then engaged one and then the other about 1/2 mile from camp(six miles one way).

The advantage of the static was if someone who didn't know anything about driving it clicked one of those up while they were moving it disconnected the "throttle" so they couldn't short circuit the batteries or burn the motors out. We didn't think to connect the brakes to the same switch. Mistake.

Also it had a governor so if the wheels started turning fast enough it triggered a solenoid that snapped both switches active. It would not be able to be driven since the throttles were disengaged and then told us who was no longer allowed to drive.

[artificer]

Originally Posted by Christ

...

It still would reduce suspension strain though, (unsprung weight) which is everyone's complaint when coupling motors directly to wheels, even though you can get rid of a large amount of weight at each wheel when using electric motors. (You don't need brakes anymore, technically.) (Legally, you still need them.)

If my calcs aren't off, and you take a 3000 lb car, like the Prius, and its going 60mph, and it stops in 143 ft, it uses 201hp for 3.25 seconds. Brakes can provide a tremendous amount of power dissipation. How often do you need to do a panic stop? There's always some idiot out there that doesn't know how to drive, and forces you to drive out of the ordinary.

I can never see getting rid of the mechanical brakes. On a long hill/mountain, what do you do when the battery is charged and the engine can't provide enough stopping power?

Michael

[anthonye81]

I had a similar dual-propulsion idea pop into my head the other day, great to see other people are thinking the same way!

I'm interested how it would be integrated into the driving experience. How about an analogue lever behind the steering wheel, similar form-factor to the semi-automatic gear change paddles you see on exotic sports cars? Around town you might have the ICE in neutral and drive the car on the paddle lever. Then when you reach the open road, fire up the ICE, select a gear and gently release the clutch while easing off the paddle. A bit of practice needed to get the hand-eye-leg coordination!

[metalshark]

I thought about this once and it would seem extremly easy to do something like this.
use your regular gas engine throtle for the electric one by wiring through the ecu.

only problem i would see is finding a cost effective high powered electric engine.

the electricity can be taken from alternators driven by air force and a aolar panel ceiling.

100% for custom fabrication tho

[ECONORAM]

Originally Posted by evolutionmovement

If you run the motor inline with the engine with a clutch between, you could probably ditch the starter as well. Save a little weight, but you'd lose a little redundancy in case of motor system failure. Could you then, too, if using an A/C motor, use it as an alternator while off throttle or when using the ICE?

Do you mean like this? Electrocharger / Retrofit PHEV Hybrid Conversion Kit :: Sigma Automotive
I've watched it for a while, and am still kinda hopeful it will actually make it into production.

[theunchosen]

Yeah the sigma page looks promising... despite some syntax errors

[Smurf]

Geo Metro front drive, a Geo Tracker rear axle driven off the UJoint by an electric motor. They are about the same width. Electric for accel, bump start the ICE.