E15 fuel may harm your vehicle's engine...

[radioranger]

tried the tc w 3 in the inboard boat and the Ranger and seems to smooth it out a bit , I've tried it before but just wondering how it might effect the o2 which of course would hurt mileage if it goes out of range

[WesternStarSCR]

Originally Posted by meanjoe75fan

It never did,* and it still doesn't.

Every one who makes the "energy-negative" argument is referencing a study by Prof. Pimental, of Cornell U. Some years ago, he put out a deeply-flawed study that said ethanol production was, indeed, energy negative.

Subsequent follow-up studies failed to reach the same conclusion, and closer examination of the data shows several issues, the most glaring of which was no accounting was made for the post-fermentation "distiller's grain" that passed along the majority of the food energy to its original purpose of livestock feed. (Apparently Pimental assumed a hole was dug, and...)

His original paper was co-authored by some others at UCBerkely, who later *had their names removed* from the paper due to the severity of the flaws. Yes, it was THAT bad!

*(Given the first two laws of thermodynamics, it follows that 1) energy cannot be created or destroyed and 2) all real-world energy conversion is <100% efficient at producing the desired result...so ALL energy conversion is "energy-negative." What the argument here is, effectively, "Well, the sun was gonna shine anyways...so we'll spot you the solar input...and it's STILL energy-negative!" All studies (save one notable exception) finds that--discounting solar input--ethanol production is modestly energy-positive.)

I appreciate the correction. I should do more research, but I was under the impression that was the case. Tell a lie long enough and people will believe it is true I suppose.

Just goes to show that even the most OCD of us in researching "why we believe what we believe" can fall into the page one trap of 'big headlines, repeated often', then miss the correction the on page 2 in small font...

I still wish the labeling laws were better in Michigan; I ate crow on that one yesterday. It turns out I have been avoiding a particular gas station since they have labels stating they have E10. I probably have had E5 to E10 all along at all the other stations I frequent, probably for years.

Maybe all states stop at E10, nothing higher, and call it a day, we blindly go about our business as American consumers? No harm, no foul to most cars.

Anything beyond that (E15 etc), and Monsanto and others interested in the ethanol market better have a long term phase in plan with the OEM's and states, and as consumers, we ought to know where our fuel is coming from, and, how it affects our cars perfomance and longevity.


Now a bit off topic, but maybe you know answers or have researched about these questions...

I will start a new thread, if needed, but I want facts to support that Ethanol is a good long term thing, for cars, the environment, for farmers, for food prices, for our land quality, etc. If not, then, well, if it bothers me that much, maybe I will be proactive in the democratic processes of our country...

Here is my belief: My belief is that corn should be food, then feed, and then fuel. Am I misinformed on that? Seriousy, I think that makes sense, but I am willing to stand corrected... Is corn much more complicated in its uses and process by-products than this simplification?

Does ethanol negatively impact availablity, price, and quality of our nations food supply and the soil on where it is grown?

Not being rhetorical, I just know that some people state Monsanto is evil, and that the ethanol push has more to do with what they want, vs. what is best for our crops, food prices, and land quality?

In other words, even if Ethanol is produced as efficient as it can be from food source type foods (barring cellulosic processes), is it still the 'the right thing to do' for the 'greater good' of our country and future generations, assuming my weighting of food first, feed second, fuel last?

That is off topic for ecomodder etc, but if I am going to alter my thinking, and not dissmiss Ethanol as a legitimate fuel source, worthy of our consumption, then those are the questions I might ask...

Petroleum use is not ideal either, neither is coal, CNG, etc. But we do not EAT those things, at least not directly. Right now, my opinion of Ethanol, in its use as a fuel, is using more water and resources that can be used for better, more direct purposes, such as for food and drinking, and let the petroleum do what it does best, burn and create heat in engines...

As the great daox once stated to someone on this very topic, as an ecomodder, we deal with what we have avaialble. So as an ecomodder, I deal with E10.

Just can't help but wonder if we know as a nation what we have gotten ourselves into, that's all... more for a philosophy class I guess than for ecomodder...

[Frank Lee]

the questions you raise have been debated and dissected pretty thoroughly before on the forum.

[WesternStarSCR]

Originally Posted by radioranger

... but just wondering how it might effect the o2 which of course would hurt mileage if it goes out of range

From what I have read, on the Bob Is The Oil Guy, and thread from 2008 on the LS1 site, the important aspect is that the fact it is an ashless TC-W3 is what makes it OK in modern cars

Along with the 640:1 mix ratio, which means very insignificant amount of heavy metals that can contaminate an O2 or CAT.

NOTE: The ASH type, (TC or similiar), 2 stroke oil is NOT what you want to use.

The KEY is "TC-W 3" oil. By any manufacturer, it is ashless, with lubricants and solvents to do the job that the other forums have researched and tested to be correct and useful.

But, I am just repeating what I have read so far, as its job as an Upper Cylinder Lubricant, and to help (hopefully) negate any ethanol related issues, even if E10 is OK and not seeming to have issues with your car.

[WesternStarSCR]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

the questions you raise have been debated and dissected pretty thoroughly before on the forum.

Hi Frank, the one I read yesterday was shut down by daox earlier this year, since it was getting between a flame battle between a couple of guys...

daox wanted to keep people focused on ecomodding, not the bigger questions of our time, which is fair for this forum...

But I threw my questions out there because I never saw a conclusion. It was one guy saying, deal with it, buy a newer used car that can handle E-10, and the other guy saying, why should I have to... ethanol is bad for X, Y and Z reasons beyond his older cars.

But there was no rebuttal that was disproving the big picture concerns. Then thread was locked.

So, I am dealing with it, of course. But curious, none the less, about the bigger picture that remains unanswered as to WHY ethanol is a fuel that makes sense vs petroleum, if the cost is somewhat reduced food supply (if that is even true; I don't know, hence my curiosity).


Back on topic now.
Gonna make sure I stay informed if E15 becomes avaialble, to steer people clear of it unless their car manufacturer says it is OK for their year & model.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by drainoil

As kind of a poor mans experiment, my uncle filled a clear mason jar filled with e10 87 octane and let it sit for several weeks. At about the 4th week it started to break down and looked to turn to varnish. Don't imagine older fuel systems can run very effieciently on this sludge.

That's what happens when Gasoline is left exposed to the atmosphere. You didn't know that? The fuel systems on new cars are sealed (with a vent for pressure buildup) to prevent the fuel being contaminated. Even Gasoline cans are sealed now.

Now if enough water gets into the fuel the Ethanol will separate. This is more of a problem for lower blends though.

Originally Posted by WesternStarSCR

So, I am dealing with it, of course. But curious, none the less, about the bigger picture that remains unanswered as to WHY ethanol is a fuel that makes sense vs petroleum, if the cost is somewhat reduced food supply (if that is even true; I don't know, hence my curiosity).


Back on topic now.
Gonna make sure I stay informed if E15 becomes avaialble, to steer people clear of it unless their car manufacturer says it is OK for their year & model.

There is a lot to cover. Best way to learn IMHO is to keep up on the scientific news, DOE, and even USDA reports. Even just looking at the GREET model helps. Notice there is a huge energy cost for Corn Ethanol but it takes far less Fossil fuels per mile and even less petroleum than straight Gasoline.

Due to Corn prices in the past E85 used to be attractive when there was excess supply but due to the demand for Ethanol for E10, E85 is now less than 1/10th the demand for Ethanol for E10. And they want to push for E15? It is about the money.

[radioranger]

The money is the biggest thing here, If you have a normal plastic jerry jug around notice how the outside turns black with mildew or mold in a short time, well that is the alcohol going through the plastic degrading back into a sugar and being used by the plants growing on your tank, also check around your gas filler pipe on your car, it's all black covered in plants, almost no plastic or rubber will contain this fuel , the coast guard even has a spec for how many grams of fuel can leak through a specified amount of rubber hose. I work on a fuel dock for boats and where the rubber hose lays on the wooden deck is all black for around 12 inches either side of the hose, where the diesel hose lays there is only clean wood, so the fumes that leak through the hose are feeding the black plants growing in the grain of the wood, but only on the gasoline side of the deck, very visible and only bleach will remove it. so what this stuff does to your fuel pump etc as it sits in your car is an issue for most .

[gone-ot]

Water intrainment in alcohol is *one* of the reasons that gasoline distribution hubs do NOT put the alcohol into the tank until the very last moment, ie: as they're pumping it into the truck-tanks before the start their delivery rounds to their gas station buyers.

[radioranger]

I read where guys who run alcohol mixes in Go carts were adding 5 percent water to cool the combustion, may be some cash savings here for the daring !

[roosterk0031]

Mix in too much water it binds with the E and settles to the bottom, that's how to measure amount of E in gas. How much is too much I have no idea. I've wondered how much H20 I could add to a tank and increase MPG. But the engineer in me think's in btu's so it wouldn't work, would it?