E15 fuel may harm your vehicle's engine...

[RobertISaar]

Originally Posted by WesternStarSCR

Luckily in Detroit there are lots of choices of non-Ethanol fuel. The entire gas station will either have all pumps with a sticker about E-10, or no sticker, hence no ethanol.

not likely.

Ethanol Labeling Laws - State by State Guide.

Michigan requires absolutely no labeling when there is ethanol present and it sucks. almost a 100% certainty that you're getting between 5 and 10% ethanol-laden fuel from those stations as well, especially with no difference in price.

[WesternStarSCR]

So either:

1. Sunoco losing business by having old stickers (perhaps from previous law?)

or

2. They have stickers because they may be HIGHER THAN 10%, but LESS THAN 15% (would that require labels in MI?)

I guess I am going to join Prophecy99's test fleet for TC-W 3 synthetic 2 stroke oil (1 oz. per 5 gallons) sooner rather than later:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post343402

[RobertISaar]

Originally Posted by WesternStarSCR

2. They have stickers because they may be HIGHER THAN 10%, but LESS THAN 15% (would that require labels in MI?)

until very recently, the EPA had never approved blends above 10% with the exception of E85, so i doubt this is the case.

most major cities actually have their own subset of fuel laws as well that effect the types of fuel you can access. i know Chicago does, the fuel i've gotten there has always been quite disappointing.

[roosterk0031]

I just can't believe that the change of 10 to 15% can really affect anything in the fuel system, I think the manufacturers are just looking for a way out of any fuel related warranty claims.

I have no problems with E10 in small engines, just don't store long term (months) with fuel in carbs without Stabil.

[drainoil]

Originally Posted by roosterk0031

I just can't believe that the change of 10 to 15% can really affect anything in the fuel system, I think the manufacturers are just looking for a way out of any fuel related warranty claims.

I have no problems with E10 in small engines, just don't store long term (months) with fuel in carbs without Stabil.

That may be so.

Got me thinking of an analogy (if this even makes sense) in the very noticeable difference between say an American light beer thats around say 4% alcohol content and an Ice beer that is 6% or close to 7% alcohol content, there is a pretty noticeable affect it has on the human body So a 5% increase in alcohol content in fuel I would say is a considerable increase, and if the fuel system was not designed to handle it???

[RobertISaar]

well..... it is a 50% increase from the current levels of ethanol in gasoline...

[niky]

There are some who say that E10 or E15 are actually worse than E5 and E20.

I've had to replace fuel pumps because of E10. Stupid rubber gasket dissolving stuff that stays in my tank too long because I don't drive as much as I should. Unfortunately, thanks to government mandate, 90% of the fuels on the market here are E10.

Talked to the manager of one of the big Euro brands around here. He hates the stuff. Tells his customers to stick to high octane boutique fuels without E10, because he gets too many cars coming in due to varnish in the fuel systems.

If you only drive your car occassionally, E10 can be a very costly mistake.

Originally Posted by UFO

Not farmers, Monsanto.

Oh Lord, don't start...

[drainoil]

Originally Posted by UFO

Not farmers, Monsanto.

Shortly after ethanol was first used in fuel here years ago, a friend in the petroleum industry said that the ag corporations involved in the ethanol plan soon bypassed the midwestern corn farmer and purchased cheaper corn from South American farmers instead so they could pocket the difference. That move put the hurt on the midwest corn farmers as the public advertising campaign touted using ethanol in gasoline as a move to be "green" and would help the local farmer and thus the local economy.

Monsanto is very very big corporate powerhouse that has powerful and connected lobbyists that could put them as the driving force behind this push for more corn fuel. Its all about money.

[meanjoe75fan]

Originally Posted by WesternStarSCR

Good grief. Does it still take more energy to make ethanol than it provides?

It never did,* and it still doesn't.

Every one who makes the "energy-negative" argument is referencing a study by Prof. Pimental, of Cornell U. Some years ago, he put out a deeply-flawed study that said ethanol production was, indeed, energy negative.

Subsequent follow-up studies failed to reach the same conclusion, and closer examination of the data shows several issues, the most glaring of which was no accounting was made for the post-fermentation "distiller's grain" that passed along the majority of the food energy to its original purpose of livestock feed. (Apparently Pimental assumed a hole was dug, and...)

His original paper was co-authored by some others at UCBerkely, who later *had their names removed* from the paper due to the severity of the flaws. Yes, it was THAT bad!

*(Given the first two laws of thermodynamics, it follows that 1) energy cannot be created or destroyed and 2) all real-world energy conversion is <100% efficient at producing the desired result...so ALL energy conversion is "energy-negative." What the argument here is, effectively, "Well, the sun was gonna shine anyways...so we'll spot you the solar input...and it's STILL energy-negative!" All studies (save one notable exception) finds that--discounting solar input--ethanol production is modestly energy-positive.)

[roosterk0031]

Untill recently trying to maximum MPG, I've used E10 excusively (some E85 in FFV cars) for the last 25 years, I've replaced one fuel pump (Malibu at about 200,000 miles, now 250,000) Stratus 230,000 and others to almost 200,000 no other fuel pumps or fuel related problems.

I have had to clean a few motorcycle carbs that where dirty when I bought them, but never had to mess with again running E10.

E15 has about 2% less energy than E10, I doubt many carb's are tuned that close that 2% less with make them run lean.