Electric car efficiencies

[user removed]

Neil, when a company and a group of financiers can offer the customer any product where the customer can buy a benefit without increasing his-her monthly cost then it passes the test of commercial viability. Everyone benefits while no one has to make any sacrifice financially.

Customer gets power, business pays people and makes money, investors get a return on their capital.

When the customer is expected to make a financial commitment base on a potential return at some time in the future, then you have the issue of predictions made by sales people that have a natural bias towards bending the facts to support their position. People in the position to make such financial decsisions are, generally speaking, acutely aware of the embellished sales pitch, and just consider it a "snake oil" sales pitch.

Bottom line is give me the facts, preferably by an independent source, with no financial interest in the success or failure of the product in real world markets, and let me decide whether the benefit is real and suits my financial situation.

Something out government has proven that it is not capable of doing on anything approaching a rational level. Every customer that walked into my door received the benefit of my knowledge and experience, including reaching the point where they should no longer spend money that did not pass the test of value received for service longevity achieved, a complete analysis of their vehicle and advice on whether is was truly cost effective to continue repairing the problems that would arise versus the mileage they would expect to continue driving.

As a thank you many of them would drive their old car to the shop, and sign the title over to us, with a thank you when their mileage had reached a point where is was not practical to expect any more without undue cost. I always considered that the ultimate testament to customer service. They did not want to sell the car to anyone because they could not look them in the face and honestly tell them everything that was going to come up in repairs to keep the old worn out car running reliably.

regards
Mech

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Ryland

... so I don't really agree with you that you can't have an EV as your only vehicle.

Those are your words, not mine. I said EVs tend to be better suited to multi-car families rather than individuals. Exceptions always abound.

I've had a few people laugh at my electric car, then I had a woman I know [that] was really impressed by what some people think of as a dorky little wedge shaped car!

Your example shows multiple people laughing and 1 person that was impressed (and you are still single). There are always exceptions and I'm sure there are even women that find a wedge driving man to be attractive, but they are relatively few compared to the number of women that find Ferrari driving men attractive. Image is nearly everything in many cultures, and sensible is not an image most care to project.

... most of the people I know with EV's are young or have kids and I only know a handful of people who have EV's who have very much money.

Are these production EVs or are they custom jobs mostly? So far I've only seen 1 Leaf, and it was driven by an old couple. My n = 1 anecdote is completely worthless, but I haven't heard anyone say the Leaf looks cool or is fast, which tends to be the 2 biggest factors the general population considers when determining the level of "cool". My opinion- it looks retarded. Would I drive one- probably.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by Ryland

The solar installer I was talking to last week offered me some name brand PV panels for $1.50 per watt (25 year warranty too) but I had to turn him down because I have my name on some that are $.89 per watt due to a liquidation sale where 1,000's of pallets of them were sold off at that price, with a flood on the market like that the price is coming down.

Is this sustainable or just a result of the rash of solar panel makers going belly up this past year and liquidating their stock?

[niky]

Might have to do with the flood of Chinese panels on the market... US installers have to lower prices to compete?

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Is this sustainable or just a result of the rash of solar panel makers going belly up this past year and liquidating their stock?

If by a rash of PV companies you mean two... of course for every company I hear is going under I hear about 2 or 3 more that are opening up to replace them and that those are doing great, building panels in the USA and selling them at a profit.
I think what has brought the price down is that production has caught up with demand, investors are seeing payback and no longer treating the solar industry as a high risk investment and countries like Germany are not buying up every panel we produce any more because they have started to get caught up on their goals, where in the past if you wanted to buy a USA made panel, it was a 6+ month wait because of the high demand.

Redpoint5: The folks I know with electric cars are a mix of people who own factory built cars like mine and others who have home conversions, Ben Nelson is the only one I know with a Geo Metro EV, other friends have more socially envious electric vehicles like Porsche, Corvette or a Nissan 300zx converted to electric.
When I said that I've had a few people laugh at my EV I was just being honest because no everyone likes it in the same way as not everyone likes my Honda Civic either, but most people who see my EV like it and I have a lot of people ask where they can find one to buy, people want to go for rides in it to see what EV's are like and the response is all around very positive, to the point where people take photos of it and hang them on their wall.
I find it funny that the people are don't like the idea of electric vehicles sound like they have never driven one let alone owned one, same thing with renewable energy, but those of us who have driven or do own electric vehicles want to give up our gasoline vehicles for them, same thing with people who live or have lived with renewable energy, there is a strong desire not to go back to those old ways, even the electric vehicles I see for sale people are not selling them because they are going back to gasoline, they are selling them for the same reason most people sell a vehicle, because they are replacing it with something that better suits their needs and most of the time that is another electric vehicle.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

...I'm sure there are even women that find a wedge driving man to be attractive, but they are relatively few compared to the number of women that find Ferrari driving men attractive.

If those are the kind of women who interest you, why not cut out the middleman, and simply pay cash?

[some_other_dave]

Originally Posted by Ryland

I find it funny that the people are don't like the idea of electric vehicles sound like they have never driven one let alone owned one...

To be fair, the cost of entry on those is on the steep side. And there are quite a few other barriers to entry.

If you allow me to turn the analogy on its head and extrapolate it to a ridiculous extreme: How can anyone say that daily-driving a 1962 Ferrari GTO isn't for them if they have never owned one?

-soD

[IamIan]

As I myself am also in an apartment and do not have regular access to a plug to plug a BEV or PHEV in with ... I defiantly agree that there is a significant issue there for adoption by some people ... even if their individual trip needs would otherwise be filled fine by a BEV, etc...

So yes ....

But ... at least from my perspective .... at one point apartments didn't have Air Conditioning ... Cable TV ... Elevators ... Laundry machines ... or even electricity itself ... So , from my perspective it is the kind of thing that is easily solved ... after all electricity infrastructure is already distributed to the buildings ... and charging outlets can be installed ... and I think it is the kind of thing that will be solved when it is sufficiently profitable for the apartment owners to do so ... in the mean time there will be issues for the early adopters to over come ... just like the early adopters have always had issues to over come ... I see plug in vehicles be it BEV or PHEV are still a small enough % of the market to still effectively be a early adopter market.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Is this sustainable or just a result of the rash of solar panel makers going belly up this past year and liquidating their stock?

The market for solar panels has been booming, and so has the market for pure silicium to make them. This has meant that a lot of companies have dived in to get their share of the loot - resulting in gross overcapacity on the market, evendespite the increase in installed PV panels .

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by some_other_dave

To be fair, the cost of entry on those is on the steep side. And there are quite a few other barriers to entry.

If you allow me to turn the analogy on its head and extrapolate it to a ridiculous extreme: How can anyone say that daily-driving a 1962 Ferrari GTO isn't for them if they have never owned one?

Saying you can't afford one is one thing, saying that they wouldn't want one because they are a lousy idea is another thing.

People who live in apartments are an electric vehicle market that is going to b hard to reach, but IamIan hit the nail on the head, my house was built with plumbing for gas lights running right next to the electrical wiring, just in case that electricity thing was a passing fad and my city had an acetylene plant to supply gas for those gas lights up until 1971, changes take time and some people will still be using gas while others are using electricity for a long time, just like in the past.