Electric cars, unclean at any speed

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by sheepdog 44

A Leaf uses a 24 kwh pack for about 71miles of range. Thats 24kwh + 31kwh = 59 kw hours of total energy usage. Thats a 90% increase, with driving 71 miles a day which is a ridiculous commute over 2 hours.

A compact gas car with reasonable efficiency gets 35mpg average. A gallon of gas contains 36.6kwh, and the car would use 2 gallons for the 71 miles. Thats a gas use of 73.1 kw + 31 kwh of the house = 104.1 kw hours of energy use, a 335% increase from the energy used to power your home, and a 76% increase in energy use from the combined energy of driving an electric car and powering a house!

That 35mpg car is also going to use 15kwh of energy just to produce that gasoline! and if someone is driving 71 miles per day then they are driving over 25,900 miles per year, average person drives around 12,500 to 15,000 miles per year so someone is stretching their figures here just to make EV's look bad.

A lot of people who buy EV's seem to also ad solar at some point or cut back their electrical use in other ways, I noticed my electric bill go up by about $10 per month with my EV, then I switched to a gas water heater and my whole utility bill it went down, my parents bought an electric car then installed more solar panels and are selling back the surplus, of course neither of us are rich so we bought some of those lower cost EV's that were not picked on by that writer.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by ConnClark

As of 2009 hydro only supplied about 6.9% of the US electrical generating capacity (and that percentage is dropping). All other renewables (Wind, Solar, Geothermal, etc..) composed about 3.6%. Nuclear power supplies about 20% of US needs...there isn't anyway we are going to ween ourselves from fossil fuel energy production anytime soon.

It depends on what your definition of any time soon is. We are currently in the process of weening ourselves from fossil fuel electricity production. Although a relatively small market, Oregon is already mostly on hydro power, and the wind projects in the gorge are huge. The only coal plant in the state will be shut down in 2020, and there is a crisis of too much renewable energy here. Furthermore, federal and state regulations such as those from CA will increasingly mandate larger percentages of renewable electricity.

Originally Posted by t vago

Sorry, but pound-for-pound, nothing beats the energy density of gasoline or diesel fuel, at the cost of said fuels. Unless and until some way can be found to beat this energy density, electric vehicles are going to continue to be expensive playthings.

While the energy density cannot currently be beaten, the cost sure can. Here, it's about 1/4th the cost to travel a given distance on electricity than with gasoline. This makes electric vehicles the perfect 2nd car for multiple car families. I was seriously considering replacing my fiance's car with an electric as the commuting/shopping vehicle.

Electrics should soon become the economic choice as fossil fuel prices rise, considering there is much less complication and fabrication that goes into their manufacture. All they consist of is an electric motor, controller, and battery. Very simple when compared to an ICE.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by ConnClark

Average house hold electrical usage a year is 11,280 kWh. That equates to about 31 kW hours a day

How much electricity does an American home use? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

So driving an electric car for about one hour a day will double a household's energy usage.

How do you propose to increase electrical efficiency in home to cover that?

My household uses 1500 kwh per YEAR. It's on the grid with no alternative sources at all. Yeah I'd say the average household has substantial room for improvement.

That's 4.1 kwh/day. If I had a Leaf and a commute... well my commute wouldn't be stupid long either, let's say I'd go 35 miles/day for 12 kwh AND that would be five days/week besides, for 16.1 kwh/day during the week and 4.1 kwh for weekend days, averaging 12.67 kwh/day, STILL less than the average Uhmerican slob by 60%! Let's say I run that poor Leaf down to 0 every day; at 28.1 kwh I STILL have the slobs beat. What was that about seeing trees and forests and stuff?

I run a full-sized fridge, chest freezer, all electric kitchen, old computer tower, mostly incandescent lighting, I even have a well pump to run whenever I want water, etc. too so no I'm not sitting here by candlelight with nothing electric running.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by ConnClark

So driving an electric car for about one hour a day will double a household's energy usage.

How do you propose to increase electrical efficiency in home to cover that?

There have been excellent replies to the problem you propose, but I suggest a few more to consider...

As sheepdog points out, the average person doesn't drive anywhere near enough to consume an additional 31 kWh per day. Additionally, electric cars won't replace 100% of the passenger vehicles on the road any time soon. If we're being honest, we clearly aren't talking about doubling the demand of electricity due to EV use. But we are talking about increasing electricity demand by some amount.

One way the increased demand for electricity can be met at minimal monetary and environmental cost is to time EVs to recharge at off-peak periods of the day. Electricity pricing should be structured to give incentive for consuming at off-peak hours. Running electrical production facilities at more consistent output increases efficiency and reduces the need for additional production capacity to be built. (As an aside, the kWh meter at my parent's house was changed to digital and I believe it self-reports now. Strangely, there is no distinction between peak and off-peak pricing.)

Another thing to offset the burden to the electricity infrastructure is to offer consumers an incentive to use their grid connected vehicles as an auxiliary source of power during peak times of electricity demand.

At last, the most likely way that the problem of increased electricity demand will be met is to gradually increase production capacity. Our vehicle fleet isn't going to convert to EV overnight, so the expansion of production capacity will take place over time, keeping relative pace with demand.

[user removed]

The future will be decided by our ability to harvest energy from solar, either directly or indirectly. We also must find a way to store that energy for load levelling and peak demand.

Direct solar heating is definitely on the verge of economical practicality.

Evaporation, which is another form of solar, has been used for power for centuries and it should be further developed, especially since reservoirs can store electrical power for load levelling.

Ocean currents are another source of energy, as well as geothermal.

All of these sources are basically carbon free, and as petroleum becomes more scarce and costly, these "alternatives" will become economically feasible.

While battery technology is the chokepoint for electric cars right now, eventually that technology will become practical and economically viable.

All of these different technologies will, without exception, be enhanced by capacitive energy capture and reapplication, almost without exception, which is why my focus has been on that part of the total systematic application of carbon free energy sources.

It may be at some time in the future we actually go in the opposite direction and atmospheric carbon levels drop, expecially if we can economically create liquid fuels using atmospheric carbon.

The demise of the petroleum power vehicle will be a gradual process that takes many decades to complete, but it will happen but probably not in most of our lifetimes.

To force the issue with draconian regulations that destroy economic prosperity will only prolong the evolution of transportation. Ignorance and Agendas are both mutually dangerous.

regards
Mech

[UFO]

Originally Posted by t vago

This carries the assumption that nobody will ever figure out how to cheaply reformulate gasoline (or other fuels) from atmospheric CO2, water, and sunlight.

Not that I am against it, but it seems less advanced than other leading technologies, and ICEs still have serious efficiency issues compared to electric. Fuel cells are a potential replacement for the ICE and could make use of liquid fuel more efficiently.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by t vago

But.. but.. but... Renewable energy! And solar panels! And pollution! And... and... and... corporations! And... um... Greenhouse gases! Yah! Greenhouse gases! And...

Like I said... Nobody bothered to look past the trees, to see the forest.

That seems ironic considering petroleum use is the core issue. From my perspective you are losing the forest for the trees.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

The title reminds me of another douche- Nader.

Yes. And notice how he plays into the envy thing, by leading off with a story about some idiot pop star driving a $100K EV? Now tell me why it would not be a problem for the same pop star to drive say a Ferrari, MSRP from $192-295K?

ETA: In fact, that person apparently DOES own a Ferrari, too.

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by UFO

That seems ironic considering petroleum use is the core issue. From my perspective you are losing the forest for the trees.

Now, if *only* we could cheaply change all those forest trees into oil...we'd have ALL the gasoline & diesel fuel we'd ever want.





...of course, there wouldn't be enough oxygen left in the atmosphere to allow the combustion of all that gasoline & diesel fuel (wink,wink).

[ConnClark]

Originally Posted by sheepdog 44

A Leaf uses a 24 kwh pack for about 71miles of range. Thats 24kwh + 31kwh = 59 kw hours of total energy usage. Thats a 90% increase, with driving 71 miles a day which is a ridiculous commute over 2 hours.

A compact gas car with reasonable efficiency gets 35mpg average. A gallon of gas contains 36.6kwh, and the car would use 2 gallons for the 71 miles. Thats a gas use of 73.1 kw + 31 kwh of the house = 104.1 kw hours of energy use, a 335% increase from the energy used to power your home, and a 76% increase in energy use from the combined energy of driving an electric car and powering a house!

Gas and Coal are both finite fossil fuel power sources. Where will the efficiency come from? from not burning twice as much energy in gasoline as can be obtained from the electrical grid. From using half as much fossil fuels from a coal plant, polluting half as much as a gas car.

There are valid arguments against Electric Vehicles that i agree with, even being an advocate for EV's. Price, battery pack lifespan, better use of pure EV batteries in many hybrids with small packs to displace the most gasoline used.

You're making the assumption that energy conversion is 100% efficient for electrical production. In reality its only about 33% on average. If you want to take from that the Grid losses of about 5% and consider batteries are only 85 to 90% efficient with charging and about 90 to 95% efficient discharging. All said and done it puts you right back at the same efficiency of a standard car (Note there are other losses that could be considered too).