Electric cars, unclean at any speed

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by NachtRitter

Ya, I'm not sure why the link defaulted to Ottawa, ON, but I'm guessing it used the ecomodder server IP address to generate a link with places near it... supposedly, if you clink on the link, it will try to guess where you are and then list nearby locations for recycling. I also listed some common places you can bring the lithiums for recycling: No cost for mailing or hazmat fees if you've got a place like that nearby; just drop 'em off if you're going there anyway.

Lets just hope those batteries live up to their hype and I don't have to worry about replacing them for a long time, maybe by then lithium collection will become more main stream.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

That's not smart meters, that's load shedding. Utilities have been doing it since at least the '80s. Users with non-critical loads like irrigation pumps get lower rates in exchange for allowing the utility to cut off the power if system demand exceeds supply.

Only problem is all the major water pumpers I know opted not to have their rates lowered in exchange for cutting power to their pumps during peak demand.
Problem is on consecutive 100'F+ degree days is when they need water most, pumps run 24hrs or stuff starts dieing.
Thats why they were so mad when they found their pumps not running.

This use to not be a problem but the government forced all the farmers around here to use electrical power to drive their pumps. They use to use natural gas up through the 1990s.
But you drive and hour or 2 into texas and they still use ICE driven irrigation pumps.

[NeilBlanchard]

A range of different renewable energy sources that are spread out geographically can provide plenty of energy - as much as SIXTEEN TIMES as much as we currently use.
With that much energy available, we could get by with very little storage.

Solar PV works right at the peak demand for A/C. Wind blows more at night, and waves are continuous is some parts of the ocean, and the tides are huge in some areas, and geothermal is easily available in some areas.

We can store methane gas that comes from digesters, that use either sewage or farm waste. Solar heat systems can store molten salt underground for days. Grid storage batteries are happening right now. Flywheel and compressed air (stored underground) and elevated reservoirs are known technologies.

[gone-ot]

Not being sarcastic, but I have to wonder what the vehicle would ultimately look like that was capable of running on ANY/ALL of those energy sources:

• Solar cell roof
• Sail (circular, square of triangular?)
• Steam (from geothermal "gas" stations)
• Methane (or CNG)
• Flywheel (good place for heavy batteries!)
• Compressed (hot) air (something useful from our politicians?)

...I almost invision a 'mechanical' Camel (...horse by committee...) Ha,ha!

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

The only way to balance production and demand is by adding more production or mandating less demand.

Or Option C , you didn't include ... storage of excess production during those times when demand reduces on its own ... no mandated less demand required ... no increased production required.

Most places around the country have time periods when the demand actually dips bellow the minimum base load of the utilities facilities ... some of them don't just turn on and off ... so some of them just waste fuel and throw away the base load that is beyond the current real time demand.

A smarter grid has less of that waste.

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Only problem is all the major water pumpers I know opted not to have their rates lowered in exchange for cutting power to their pumps during peak demand.
Problem is on consecutive 100'F+ degree days is when they need water most, pumps run 24hrs or stuff starts dieing.
Thats why they were so mad when they found their pumps not running.

This use to not be a problem but the government forced all the farmers around here to use electrical power to drive their pumps. They use to use natural gas up through the 1990s.
But you drive and hour or 2 into texas and they still use ICE driven irrigation pumps.

That's a potential problem of being dependent on someone else ... even the utility grid.

They could invest in their own energy independence ... I've known several farmers when I lived in Lancaster Pa that invested in biogas digested tanks ... to turn their farm plant and animal waste into combustible gas , which ran all of their farm equipment , including the water irrigation pumps , tractors , and everything else ... even had surplus to run converted pickup trucks for local errands and such... some also put up RE like wind or solar in order to reach their goal of energy self sufficiency... but others had surplus just from the biogas without any other RE added.

[P-hack]

extra storage comes at an initial and ongoing cost though. In some cases it can make good sense (like charging one EV battery pack while driving on the other, as EV's are the cause of the usage spike anyway in this discussion and can take a while to recharge).

In other cases it is a one size fits all solution, and leakage and other losses come into play on a much larger scale.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Only problem is all the major water pumpers I know opted not to have their rates lowered in exchange for cutting power to their pumps during peak demand.
Problem is on consecutive 100'F+ degree days is when they need water most, pumps run 24hrs or stuff starts dieing.

May be more of a problem with what they're growing. Hereabouts it seemed quite welcome, because any sensible farmer would be irrigating at night anyway, since temperatures drop to the low 60s/high 50s in midsummer, which in turn means that scarce water they're spraying on the fields doesn't evaporate before it soaks in deep enough to get to the plant roots.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Most places around the country have time periods when the demand actually dips bellow the minimum base load of the utilities facilities ... some of them don't just turn on and off ... so some of them just waste fuel and throw away the base load that is beyond the current real time demand.

A smarter grid has less of that waste.

Sure. Now imagine an EV/PHEV that is smart enough to know (maybe because you tell it?) how much you plan to drive tomorrow, and if energy is expensive, only charges enough to get you there. Or looks at forecast weather, sees it's going to be sunny tomorrow, and knows you can recharge at work with the excess PV generation.

Or how about an A/C system that has a lot of built-in thermal mass, which is chilled when there is excess generation, and used for cooling later on?

There are a whole lot of problems like this, which can be solved fairly simply with imagination and a bit of silicon.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Or Option C , you didn't include ... storage of excess production during those times when demand reduces on its own ... no mandated less demand required ... no increased production required.

Grid power storage is a bad idea, you instantly lose up to 10% to 30% of the power you are trying to store by storing it up and releasing it.
Over on wind-sun.com they claim the typical off grid PV to lead acid to ACpower setup as being around 67% efficient by the time the power gets used in your home.
So how do you get more power out of a system by adding on a new system that has automatic losses of up to 30%?

Normally you think batteries are the obvious answer only problem is they have limited life spans and when they go bad you have tons of lead, nickel or lovely cadmium to deal with. The amounts of metal needed would be in the millions of tons tons range. It takes around 50lbs of lead just to hold 1KWH of useable power in a lead acid battery. Lead is the most likely candidate for battery storage.
If you are going to use Nickel based chemistry then you might as well forget about building a whole lot of electric and hybrid car batteries.

If the smart grid uses batteries or some other means to store power its going to be even less efficient and cost more than what we have now.
It sounds like the smart grid has a huge potential to increase wastes of all different kinds.

The only grid storage that has good potential is the one we have been using for years already. Its safe, there are no toxic metals involved and makes up over 99% of grid storage capacity already. Its called pumped hydroelectric storage. Only problem is it doesn't work every where.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Grid power storage is a bad idea, you instantly lose up to 10% to 30% of the power you are trying to store by storing it up and releasing it.
Over on wind-sun.com they claim the typical off grid PV to lead acid to ACpower setup as being around 67% efficient by the time the power gets used in your home.
So how do you get more power out of a system by adding on a new system that has automatic losses of up to 30%?

Normally you think batteries are the obvious answer only problem is they have limited life spans and when they go bad you have tons of lead, nickel or lovely cadmium to deal with. The amounts of metal needed would be in the millions of tons tons range. It takes around 50lbs of lead just to hold 1KWH of useable power in a lead acid battery. Lead is the most likely candidate for battery storage.
If you are going to use Nickel based chemistry then you might as well forget about building a whole lot of electric and hybrid car batteries.

If the smart grid uses batteries or some other means to store power its going to be even less efficient and cost more than what we have now.
It sounds like the smart grid has a huge potential to increase wastes of all different kinds.

The only grid storage that has good potential is the one we have been using for years already. Its safe, there are no toxic metals involved and makes up over 99% of grid storage capacity already. Its called pumped hydroelectric storage. Only problem is it doesn't work every where.

. . . and a great idea in others.

I have an associate who works for Southern California Edison Gas & Electric (SCEGE) Eastern. Over dinner, he described the ongoing retrofit of one of their power plants from two large oil-fired steam generators to 4 combined cycle gas fired generators. The 1000+ MW production capability was not just the only advantage, but the ability to more easily match load with production as the new turbines could be stopped and started in about 30 minutes compared to the old steam units which took hours. He mentioned how in the day, they would dump excess electricity into resistive loads to balance the minimum output of the steam generators. Now, he says, they rarely dump their excess but simply put it on the grid so the night time industries out in the Los Angeles Basin can more easily balance their loads. Because they also give PM electrical discounts, many commercial industries have taken advantage and run night shifts.

This has been brought about because of the so called "smart grid". Local capacity is more easily diffused into the surrounding areas.

Electric vehicle charging at night would be welcome because it just means overcapacity is used.

When asked about local storage of overcapacity, he mentioned the overriding thing is going to be cost. The operators have to look at capital payback and profits of course. Efficiency is less of a concern as the energy is often wasted anyways. Reducing, then selling that "waste" energy has been their thrust.

When asked about using old EV packs as overcapacity storage, he said the large variability in design, voltage and capacity would probably prove a nightmare to integrate into the power grid. It simply would cost too much. However, some local entrepreneurs were thinking of buying up used Prius packs and charging them at night rates and selling quick charge services at a premium price during daytime loads. They also wanted to be able to sell back to the grid during peak hours but operators only buy back at the reduced rates, so there would be no profit as of the moment. That may change in the future.

The recycling of battery chemistry as an aside, excess load storage can be workable if costs are low enough to tempt the power producers to use them.