The End of Car Culture?

[gone-ot]

Yep, too damn many electronic "geegaws"!

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by 101Volts

The more luxury there is to a car, The more there is to go wrong or that's how I look at it; Take the power windows, Power seats and air conditioning for examples and you might know what I'm talking about.

I don't think you will see any cars touting AC or power windows as luxury features. These systems tend to be very reliable too.

You may enjoy more of these "luxury" features without them breaking if you stay away from the used domestics. I'm always replacing stupid stuff on my Dodge RAM 2500; blower resistors, door switches, speed sensors, calipers; and not so stupid stuff like fuel pumps, transmission, differential bolts, AC...

My Subaru - 240,000 miles - replaced clutch at 120,000 miles (due to previous owner).

My TSX - 75,000 miles - No repairs.

[Cd]

So what is wrong with less people driving ? I can't think of a single bad thing about that.
Less accidents, less traffic, less pollution, better roads, etc.

I'm one of those guys you mentioned that has a phobia of driving. It's more of a claustrophobia i guess, since i enjoy driving when there are no cars on the road besides me.

I really look forward to self driving cars for people with extreme phobias. I could actually live life !

I get the impression that you guys think of an end to car culture as some sort of threat to your youth, like this will somehow make your old hot rod just a boring old car that is less interesting than the latest iPhone.

[user removed]

The car companies have been pushing options for so long they aren't even options anymore. All that crap falls apart and you toss out a decent car because it is not worth the cost of replacing a power window regulator on the drivers door (required for inspection).

They make 100% profit on options, about 20% on the most basic vehicle as an average, maybe even less these days.

I think there is a transformation coming and the company that builds basic transportation may actually be ahead of the optionaholics. I always told my customers when you buy an older car the fewer options the better.

Look at the price of a used Toyota Echo, the most basic transportation you could get from Toyota from 2000-05, even manual steeering, windows, and God help us, NO AC.
They couldn't sell them in 2005, but oh have times changed since then. Maybe they need to reconsider the low priced basic transportation vehicle, if they want young customers.

There may be a niche in the 3 wheel tadpole trike market for commuters. That's one reason I am building one, also it is considered a motorcyle instead of falling into the car category which would require crash testing which would be cost prohibitive for any small fry wanting to build a vehicle.

regards
Mech

[gone-ot]

It used to be (back in the good old days) that MANUAL transmissions were standard and AUTOMATIC transmissions were either an upgrade or were optional. Today, however, many vehicles only come with automatic transmissions--a manual transmission is not even available!

And, part of the reason for this situation is the high cost of EPA mandated separate testing of each & every vehicle engine and transmission combination...so, the manufacturers just drop the less profitable combinations and only test and offer the most lucrative combinations.

Also, the simple AM-FM radios (way back then) were either a delete or upgrade, today, they only come with video screens and quasi-in-car-computer systems!

People (and the automotive industry) seem to forget that AM radios in cars actually had a purpose...during 1950-60's every radio had CD (Civil Defense) markings at two locations on the dials for people to hear local and national emergency messages.

[UltArc]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

It used to be (back in the good old days) that MANUAL transmissions were standard and AUTOMATIC transmissions were either an upgrade or were optional. Today, however, many vehicles only come with automatic transmissions--a manual transmission is not even available!

And, part of the reason for this situation is the high cost of EPA mandated separate testing of each & every vehicle engine and transmission combination...so, the manufacturers just drop the less profitable combinations and only test and offer the most lucrative combinations.

Also, the simple AM-FM radios (way back then) were either a delete or upgrade, today, they only come with video screens and quasi-in-car-computer systems!

People (and the automotive industry) seem to forget that AM radios in cars actually had a purpose...during 1950-60's every radio had CD (Civil Defense) markings at two locations on the dials for people to hear local and national emergency messages.

I hate this:
Where do you have X cars?
-They are over there.
AH, I see. Any standards?
-Yes, here you go.
*Points to cloth seats*
Not what I meant.

As much as I dislike the hi tech radios that distract drivers, regardless of their complexity, some prices are still low. As in my current number 3 favorite reasonable car, the Velociter base model w/ standard.

[Occasionally6]

Cars are more expensive and smaller? Not from where I sit. If I look back at the price lists (in real terms) from 30 years ago, matching cars of similar size and weight, they have definitely become less expensive to buy. Not only that, they have as standard those "luxuries" (like A/C, ABS, ESP, power steering and airbags). Lower price and more content.

What has happened is that the same model name has been applied to cars that have progressively gained size and weight, presumably because people have been able to afford to do so.

Apart from the peak immediately prior to the GFC, fuel prices are lower and the ubiquitous powertrain electronic management means they use less of it.

Maintenance costs are lower because no longer do things like ignition points replacement and ignition timing and carburettor adjustments have to be done as part of regular servicing. Service intervals are longer; typically 10000 miles against 5000 miles.

Yes, they do cost more to repair when things do go wrong but they - the major things at least - are much less likely to do so.

That they have become more difficult for the untrained person to repair or modify may have had some affect on how 'connected' people can be to their cars. Where there are competing (electronic) means by which social status/cleverness can be demonstrated, particularly by young people, that aspect of car culture has less value anyway.

Automatic transmissions are just as likely to be standard because they are easier to make meet emission levels as they are because few people want to buy manual transmissions or the higher amortised cost of testing. Most of the contemporary automatic transmissions use comparable, even less, fuel too.

The automatic transmissions and electronic aids do make driving less involving. Stronger law enforcement, less tolerance of 'risky' behavior and higher population densities may limit somewhat the kind of fun that could once have been had in cars.

[serialk11r]

Not that Scion is doing well, but the fact that Toyota thinks they can market incredibly ugly crap cars to "young people" in particular probably says something about the trend.

[niky]

@Occasionally6: That's the same thought I have.

It was interesting when people were harping on the Cruze in another thread by comparing it to the Chevette.

Cars like the Cruze and Focus are nearly twice as heavy as the Chevette and Escort that they are spiritual successors to. But they're also gigantic barges in comparison.

Even the Fit/Rio class, which are, inflation-adjusted, in the same price range as the Chevette/Escort class, are bigger than the Chevette/Escort by far.

If you want something that's Chevette sized, you're looking at this:



Which provides similar space, more headroom, around the same weight, more technology, more safety and... isn't available in the US.

The Mirage will be, though.

I'll disagree, for the most part about automatics. They can be made to meet emissions testing much more easily due to the free pass the EPA gives them in terms of shift points, but in the real world, automatics still don't quite match manuals with good drivers, especially in traffic.

The point is moot in the USA, though, since EPA is the rules they have to play by... but as people start downsizing and down-speccing in a weaker economy with higher fuel prices, I think manuals will come back in vogue sooner or later.

[101Volts]

Originally Posted by Occasionally6

(Long post on Page 4)

I'm not the smartest person and I didn't consider all angles so do please take my reply on Page 3 as it is and not gospel, I don't just speak to you but to anyone reading.

And I speak from liking of a 1984 Caprice Classic which I drive which has Manual windows, Manual locks and frozen up A/C so that's part of where I'm coming from.

I don't know what FE I get on average in it at the time of this posting and editing, But that's another topic.