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Old 07-09-2019, 02:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litesong View Post
I have 10+ years of experience with 87 octane 10% ethanol blend (E10) vs. 87 octane ethanol-free gasoline (E0). My 5 low-compression ratio, 87 octane gasoline engines show a percentage MPG increase, E0/E10 of 8%, 8%, 7%-8%, 7%, & 5%. E10 advocates tote the energy difference between E0 & E10 of 3% as showing only 3% MPG gain for E0 over E10. However, the following is important:
87 octane 100% gasoline component (E0) is 87 octane. duh!
Reported in many websites, inaccurate but "designated" 87 octane 10% ethanol blend (E10) has a gasoline component that is 84 octane. Because of great quantities of "ethanol in gasoline industry" propaganda & lobbying to artificially lower E10 prices, American drivers have accepted 84 octane component gasoline to be used (not efficiently burned) in their 87 octane gasoline engines. But, 87 octane E0, as burned properly in an 87 octane, low compression ratio designed gasoline engine, has 8% to 5% better MPG than inaccurate, but "designated" 87 octane 10% ethanol blend, which has neither ethanol component or gasoline component that is 87 octane.
Now the "ethanol in gasoline industry" is pushing inaccurate, but "designated" 88 octane, 15% ethanol-blend (E15). Inaccurate, but "designated" 88 octane ethanol-blend E15 has a gasoline component with an octane of 83.5.
If the "ethanol in gasoline industry" can successfully market inaccurate, but "designated" 88 octane ethanol-blend E15, they will then push inaccurate, but "designated" 87 octane ethanol-blend E15, which has its gasoline component as 82.4 octane. In all cases, the ethanol blends have no fuel components that are 87 octane & all ethanol blends are inefficiently burned.
The magic & power of propaganda to get people to accept products in their lives which are not "efficient" is remarkable.
///////
Glad to see you live in Sequim. I live on the east side of the Salish Sea (Puget Sound). Do you buy your Ethanol-free E0 at Chimacum or Port Angeles? Sorry, you have to pay so much for E0. Its still expensive, but on the east side here, I get my E0 for $3.42.
Are you certain that's how it works?

To use a similar item as an analogy, you *can* in fact get the properties of a 5w30 oil by mixing a 5w20 and a 5w40. It isn't just two dissociated oils floating around in the crank case, they average out and you get the desired viscosity.

Gasoline itself is a mixture of a lot of different compounds anyway.

Taken from Wikipedia:

Quote:
The octane rating of gasoline is measured in a test engine and is defined by comparison with the mixture of 2,2,4-trimethylpentane (iso-octane) and heptane that would have the same anti-knocking capacity as the fuel under test: the percentage, by volume, of 2,2,4-trimethylpentane in that mixture is the octane number of the fuel. For example, gasoline with the same knocking characteristics as a mixture of 90% iso-octane and 10% heptane would have an octane rating of 90. A rating of 90 does not mean that the gasoline contains just iso-octane and heptane in these proportions but that it has the same detonation resistance properties (generally, gasoline sold for common use never consists solely of iso-octane and heptane; it is a mixture of many hydrocarbons and often other additives). Because some fuels are more knock-resistant than pure iso-octane, the definition has been extended to allow for octane numbers greater than 100.

Octane ratings are not indicators of the energy content of fuels. (See Effects below and Heat of combustion). They are only a measure of the fuel's tendency to burn in a controlled manner, rather than exploding in an uncontrolled manner. Where the octane number is raised by blending in ethanol, energy content per volume is reduced. Ethanol BTUs can be compared with gasoline BTUs in heat of combustion tables.

It is possible for a fuel to have a Research Octane Number (RON) more than 100, because iso-octane is not the most knock-resistant substance available. Racing fuels, avgas, LPG and alcohol fuels such as methanol may have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher. Typical "octane booster" gasoline additives include MTBE, ETBE, isooctane and toluene. Lead in the form of tetraethyllead was once a common additive, but its use for fuels for road vehicles has been progressively phased-out worldwide, beginning in the 1970s

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Old 07-09-2019, 06:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
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over 4 tanks of regular E-10 I was averaging about 44.5mpg
after 3 tanks of E-0 my average is 49.9mpg

Quote:
3-tank Fuel Economy: 49.9 mpg (US), 4.7 L/100 km, 59.9 mpg (Imp)
EPA Combined Rating / % over rating: 40 mpg (US) / 16.4% (based on 90-day fuel economy)
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:39 PM   #23 (permalink)
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According to another poster 3 tanks, don't matter, years of data regardless of season/weather/tires etc... is better.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Set best ever MPG 2 tanks in a row with the 2010 Cobalt last week on E0. Switched back to XFE after fixing rusted leaking fuel lines, going for best in it but doubt I can make it, 3 of 4 tires near wear bars but don't think they are as LRR as OEM and it has 200,000 more miles on it.

Did figure out my fuel trim issues, leaking evap purge valve creating a vacuum leak maxing out fuel trims, disconnect electric signal, different CEL but fuel trims good.
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:09 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Mr. Kraut Burner of the PNW

I want to understand this correctly. Driving your Geo Metro in the recent past you have used mainly pure unleaded gasoline (grade?)(octane?) and ethanol free and gotten a reduction in fuel consumption. Is that a Fair Statement!

Last edited by TexasCotton; 07-10-2019 at 12:20 AM..
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:13 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCotton View Post
Mr. Kraut Burner of the PNW

I want to understand this correctly. Driving your Geo Metro in the recent past you have used mainly pure unleaded (grade?)(octane?) and ethanol free and gotten a reduction in fuel consumption. Is that a Fair Statement!
yes,

running regular unleaded (E-10) I was averaging 44-45mpg
running Ethanol Free regular unleaded (E-0) I'm averaging 49-50mpg

that's more than the governments estimate of 3% loss in running ethanol
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:24 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Thank you Kraut

I would have to leave my home and drive 53min to find a ethanol free gasoline fuel aka the good stuff. Debating how desperate I am to sit in a vehicle for 2 hours for better fuel or the other option to process my own home brew via phase separation.
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Old 07-10-2019, 06:32 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCotton View Post
...I would have to..... drive 53min to find a ethanol free gasoline fuel aka the good stuff.
Fifteen or twenty years ago, grass-roots pure-gas.org listed ~ 2000 E0 sources in Canada & the U,S. Ten(?) years ago, Dallas listed under 100(70?) E0 sources. Today, pure-gas.org lists 14,382 E0 sources in Canada & the U.S. & Texas lists 263 E0 sources. Hey, maybe an E0 source will open closer to you.
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Old 07-10-2019, 07:39 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecky View Post
Are you certain that's how it works? To use a similar item as an analogy.....get the properties of a 5w30 oil by mixing a 5w20 and a 5w40.Gasoline itself is a mixture of a lot of different compounds anyway.
Your analogy is not appropriate. Oil lubricates & isn't meant to burn in the powerstroke of an 87 octane engine. Gasoline engineers build 87 octane gasoline engines to use 87 octane E0 gasoline. 87 octane E10 is two fuels, 114 octane ethanol & 84 octane gasoline. If a particular car, using(not burning efficiently) 87 octane E10 is knocking, it is the 84 octane gasoline component that knocks. Possibly, switching to 87 octane E0 could stop an 87 octane gasoline engine from knocking on inaccurate, but designated 87 octane E10. Also, 114 octane ethanol must ignite, mostly outside the powerstroke of the 87 octane gasoline. In essence, 87 octane E0 burns in the powerstroke of the 87 gasoline engine. That is why my last five featherfooted 87 octane gasoline engines got 8%, 8%, 7%-8%, 7% & 5% better MPG burning 87 octane E0, not using (burning inefficiently) incorrectly, but designated 87 octane E10.
Like you stated, octanes in gasoline are a mixture of molecules. However, 87 octane E0 is centered around 87 octane. Incorrectly, but designated 87 E10 has two centers, one centering around 84 octane gasoline component & one centering around 114 octane ethanol component.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:22 PM   #30 (permalink)
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FYI
I am also using the mandated smog reformulated gasoline according to the Energy department//https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/gas_geographies.php#reformulatedmap

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