A few questions about electric cars

[Ladogaboy]

I think you some of you guys are missing the mark in the same way that some artists and writers do: You feel that because you are promoting a "better" product, everyone should gravitate towards it. Well, it doesn't work that way. Like any other product, cars must be geared (heh) toward what the market audience wants and will buy. Even if you could build an electric car with the same range as a gas vehicle (i.e., the car could outlast the driver in terms of endurance), some people might still be reluctant to buy it. Change is scary. Not being able to account for all situations (no matter how ridiculous or unlikely) is scary.

In order to make electric cars sell, you need to make the transition from ICE to EV as seamless and unnoticeable as possible to the average consumer. Even hybrids, which really are the halfway point, took coaxing to sell initially. Just give it time. A change like this can't be forced; it needs to happen organically.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by drees

Yes, this "battery" you describe would be called a fuel cell.

Not exactly. The fuel cell converts fuel to electricity in a non-reversible reaction. A battery's chemistry is reversible, so you can put electricity in to store it.

[Ecky]

I have a question about EVs: Are electric vehicles really much more economical than gas vehicles at today's prices?

It's certain that in 10 years, gasoline will be much more expensive than it is now, and batteries will likely be cheaper. But is it economical to buy a battery today? Let's say that in a Leaf, you pay $16 to go 300 miles, and in my car, you pay $30 to go 300 miles. That's 10 cents per mile vs 5.3 cents per mile. If your battery will last you 200,000 miles, you've saved $9,000 over the life of the battery, but how much does a battery cost?


Taken from The Wall Street Journal:

Current industry estimates say the battery pack in the all-electric Nissan Leaf compact car coming out in December costs Nissan Motor Co. about $15,600.

Am I missing something? Nissan is paying ~$15,000 (probably after huge volume discounts) for a battery that is predicted to break even in cost if you can use it for 340,000 miles (will it last that long?), and the only tradeoffs you make are that you can't take your car more than 50 miles from home, or you'll have to wait 20 hours (from Nissan's site) for it to charge on a 115v outlet. Also, isn't the charging station for the Leaf something like $2000 by itself.

Which poses the question: is any battery bought today actually going to save you money? I can maybe see it working out in a Hybrid, if a small battery allows the use of a smaller powerplant which always runs at peak efficiency or not at all.

Seems to me it's probably much more economical to use gasoline until battery prices come down, or gas prices go up, unless I've grossly miscalculated somewhere. I'd love to do the environmentally right thing, but I can't afford it.

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by Ecky

If your battery will last you 200,000 miles, you've saved $9,000 over the life of the battery, but how much does a battery cost?


Am I missing something? Nissan is paying ~$15,000 (probably after huge volume discounts) for a battery that is predicted to break even in cost if you can use it for 340,000 miles (will it last that long?), and the only tradeoffs you make are that you can't take your car more than 50 miles from home, or you'll have to wait 20 hours (from Nissan's site) for it to charge on a 115v outlet. Also, isn't the charging station for the Leaf something like $2000 by itself.

Which poses the question: is any battery bought today actually going to save you money? I can maybe see it working out in a Hybrid, if a small battery allows the use of a smaller powerplant which always runs at peak efficiency or not at all.

I'm not sure where they got the $15,000 battery price but for $8,600 I can buy lithium batteries, shipped to my door that would give equivalent range to what the Leaf has and that is before any volume discounts or anything, that is just me ordering off the first web site that came up that sells the brand of battery that seemed to be popular with home conversions.
Yes you can pay up to $2,000 for a home charging station... why anyone would I don't know but you can, other then that for $2,000 that charging station will Email you or text you or for about $500 you can get a basic wall charging station and for about half of that you can buy all of the parts to make your own.

On my electric car I figure my lead acid battery pack will last me about 5 years and that the cost savings of oil changes and exhaust systems is comparable to the cost of the battery pack, that my over all cost of ownership should in the long run average out to about 10 cents per mile or about half of what it costs me to drive with gasoline.
But I agree, EV's are not for everyone, just like a pickup truck is not the right vehicle for everyone, but then I look at how many people replace their car battery, starter and exhaust system every few years because of the high wear that they see because of all the short trips that are driven and you can see how a vehicle that excels at short trips might be a good choice.

[Ladogaboy]

Well, if you want to talk total ownership price between EVs (with battery packs that will eventually need replacing) and ICE vehicles, you also need to take into account the number maintenance items that are required for the ICE vehicle but not the EV. Here is a short list:

Engine oil
Oil filters
Fuel filters
Air filters
Spark plugs
Spark plug wires
Fuel lines
Fuel injectors
Coolant/antifreeze
Myriad hoses/vacuum lines

The list goes on and on. And even if you follow your maintenance guidelines fervently, you'll still most likely see a catastrophic engine failure and/or need an engine rebuild long before anything other than the battery pack on an EV goes out. I'm, of course, discounting any of the maintenance that EVs and ICE vehicles have in common (e.g., suspension, brakes, tires).

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

Well, if you want to talk total ownership price between EVs (with battery packs that will eventually need replacing) and ICE vehicles, you also need to take into account the number maintenance items that are required for the ICE vehicle but not the EV.

A lot of EV's also use a single speed gear reduction instead of an automatic transmission and automatic transmissions tend to wear out well before the gas engine, last person I talked to who had an automatic transmission fixed paid over $3,000 to have it done on a car with about 70,000 miles.

But you still have tires, brakes, wiper blades, washer fluid, cabin air filter, brake fluid, and maybe every 100,000 miles suspension gets replaced?

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

Well, if you want to talk total ownership price between EVs (with battery packs that will eventually need replacing) and ICE vehicles, you also need to take into account the number maintenance items that are required for the ICE vehicle but not the EV...

You're right, of course. I expect to spend about $2000 on oil changes (probably the largest single expense) before my engine is done, but the biggest advantage to me is that the expense is spread over time. Even if electric and gas vehicles cost about the same by the time they're ready for the scrapyard (I'm not convinced of this), it's a lot easier for me to pay the $10,000 over the life of the vehicle in fuel and maintenance than to put it all down upfront in a battery.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by Ryland

A lot of EV's also use a single speed gear reduction instead of an automatic transmission and automatic transmissions tend to wear out well before the gas engine, last person I talked to who had an automatic transmission fixed paid over $3,000 to have it done on a car with about 70,000 miles.

While not terribly uncommon, it's far from the norm. My girlfriend's '96 Honda gave its last breath a few weeks ago with 290,000 on the odometer, and it never needed any unusual maintenance from the day her parents bought it new from the dealer. This is perhaps closer to the other end of the spectrum, but also not too uncommon.

I could find a replacement transmission for $300 and perhaps $3-400 more to install it at a local garage, I couldn't justify the cost because the car was so beat up I could find something with half the miles and prettier for little more.

I understand that not everyone is mechanically inclined, but even paying for maintenance, I'd wager gasoline powered vehicles are cheaper today, and definitely more convenient.

-However- I wouldn't purchase a new gasoline vehicle, with the oil industry in the state that it is. The advantage may fall sharply in favor of EVs in a few short years, leaving gasoline-powered vehicles relatively useless, though I imagine we (the US) will start some wars in an attempt to keep the status quo.

[Photonfanatic]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

Even without the advent of new materials, new construction methods have shown promise of as much as a 10-fold increase in energy density.

Sounds like this is pretty much the solution then. So what is it that we need? More research and development, to get our current stuff to stretch to that 10-fold? That actually far exceeds the capabilities of any liquid fueled vehicle, within reason. You're not going to find any normal car or truck going a thousand miles or more.

[NeilBlanchard]

Even at just $2.75 / gallon, a RAV4 EV will cost you ~$12,000 less to drive 100,000 miles than the RAV4 ICE. That includes fuel and regular maintenance at a dealer.