A few questions about electric cars

[Ladogaboy]

Not only that, 300 miles seems EXTREMELY optimistic for the Tesla. As I recall, even with people attempting to stretch the range, 250 miles was pushing it (which I'm sure will also be the case with the Tesla sedan). With three passengers, stressful driving, A/C on to compensate for all the stinky, hot breath... Yeah, I don't think 250 miles is reasonable for a trip to grandma's house.

The biggest hurdle for EVs right now is the batteries. The energy density just isn't there yet. Maybe in ten years, but right now, most affordable EVs are going to be relegated to urban/suburban driving.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

The biggest hurdle for EVs right now is the batteries. The energy density just isn't there yet. Maybe in ten years, but right now, most affordable EVs are going to be relegated to urban/suburban driving.

My intention isn't to single you out Ladogaboy, but I often hear that energy density isn't good enough with current battery technology, but the future will bring something better. Do we have reason to believe there is yet undiscovered chemistry to support this notion of better batteries?

[Photonfanatic]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

Not only that, 300 miles seems EXTREMELY optimistic for the Tesla. As I recall, even with people attempting to stretch the range, 250 miles was pushing it (which I'm sure will also be the case with the Tesla sedan). With three passengers, stressful driving, A/C on to compensate for all the stinky, hot breath... Yeah, I don't think 250 miles is reasonable for a trip to grandma's house.

This is kind of what I was thinking. They say that sedan will go 300 miles, but once you get 3 or 4 people in there, and crank up all the goodies, I bet you that number will dwindle quite rapidly. At that point hmm... electric car not looking so great after all...

But then again, I do a lot of driving to town just to get a coke or something. Or maybe me and one buddy want to go do something that isn't 250 miles away lol. Which is often the case. Maybe if you didn't mind stopping and plugging into say... a light pole or a car wash's outdoor plug for an hour... I don't know.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

My intention isn't to single you out Ladogaboy, but I often hear that energy density isn't good enough with current battery technology, but the future will bring stuff. Do we have reason to believe there is yet undiscovered chemistry to support this notion of better batteries?

Something else I'm not very educated on. Perhaps there is some super expensive way of using the best of the best materials, or a far more expensive metals...

Also what happens when the battery starts to develop a "memory"? Don't you need to run a battery all the way down in order to avoid that?

[drees]

Originally Posted by Ladogaboy

Not only that, 300 miles seems EXTREMELY optimistic for the Tesla.

The 300 mi range number is an "ideal range" for the 85 kWh battery car which means driven at 55 mph. "Real life" range will probably be about 70-80% of that number. Similar to how the LEAF is called a "100 mile" car, but in real life it's more like 70+ miles.

Originally Posted by Photonfanatic

Maybe if you didn't mind stopping and plugging into say... a light pole or a car wash's outdoor plug for an hour... I don't know.

Charging stations will become more popular - but your typical station today is able to recharge at a maximum rate of about 24 miles / hour. Quick charge stations are be able to charge from near empty to 80% in about 30 minutes. Your typical 120V outlet? 4 miles / hour.

Originally Posted by Photonfanatic

Also what happens when the battery starts to develop a "memory"? Don't you need to run a battery all the way down in order to avoid that?

No memory issue with lithium batteries used in modern EVs.

[Ladogaboy]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

My intention isn't to single you out Ladogaboy, but I often hear that energy density isn't good enough with current battery technology, but the future will bring stuff. Do we have reason to believe there is yet undiscovered chemistry to support this notion of better batteries?

More than likely, these improvements will come through nanotechnology used to construct the batteries. Even without the advent of new materials, new construction methods have shown promise of as much as a 10-fold increase in energy density. I read a recent article regarding major gains in the energy storage of Li batteries by doing nothing more than boring microscopic holes in the Li. Not only did the amount of energy that could be stored increase, but also the rate at which the battery could accept a charge. The only drawback was that the batteries could only cycle through about 100 charges before seeing a drastic reduction in storage capabilities.

I don't have the research and articles bookmarked (and it's bedtime), but I'll try to scrounge up what I've found on the subject later.

[NeilBlanchard]

The DBM Energy Kolibri battery was able to go 375 miles at 55MPH average with 18% charge left. This was in a converted Audi A2 that still had 4 seats and normal storage space.

The SIM-LEI goes 200+ miles with just a 25.9kWh pack, and the Illuminati Motor Works 7 goes 210+ on a 33kWh pack.

Today's batteries are up to the task. It is the efficiency of the car itself that is required to go long range on a single charge.

I think that 300-400 miles is relatively easy to do. And with a car as efficient as say the Edison2 VLCe and a big pack like the Kolibri (99kWh) the range is possibly 2X that.

*********

Questions about gasoline powered cars: what will fuel them in 25 years? In 50 years? What about 100 years from now? Are the military costs and the pollution and the carbon dioxide they dump into the environment too high a price? Will we stop ruining the only planet we have before it is too late?

[drmiller100]

Ethanol is "rechargable". If you get SERIOUS about the economics, ethanol can indeed be made and sold for a profit at today's gasoline prices. This tells me it makes economic sense.

Brazil has been doing it for many years.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Do we have reason to believe there is yet undiscovered chemistry to support this notion of better batteries?

Batteries are chemistry, and burning gasoline in an IC engine is chemistry. So is there IN PRINCIPLE any reason a "battery" couldn't store as much energy in some reversible reaction as could be stored in an equal weight of gasoline? Then figure the manifold inefficiencies of the burning gasoline to motive power conversion process against electic motors, it does seem as though it should be possible.

[Ryland]

Trouble is, less then 10% of the US drivers drive over 100 miles per day but people are worried that their one or two trips a year that are over 100 miles that they are going to be stuck with a car that doesn't have the range when most people have multiple options on what vehicle to drive when they are faced with a long drive.
I'd rather drive my electric car to the train station to go to grandma's house, it's a lower cost per mile and I can sleep or read or do whatever I want in a larger seat with more space to move around and often times get their faster.

There is a solid debate about if we really need fast charging stations or even public charging stations because of how little they would get used, but then again it sounds like a lot of people here have that need to drive 200-300 miles each way and would be doing so either alone or with a car full of people who don't have any other vehicles that could be taken instead.
It's all about using the right tool for the job, if I use my electric car for all of my daily needs and save my gasoline car for hauling stuff, towing a trailer and going to grandmas house then my gasoline car is going to last much longer because it's being used mostly on the highway, it might allow me to get 300,000 or 400,000 miles on my gasoline car, that is if it doesn't rust out in the next 20 years.

[drees]

Originally Posted by drmiller100

Ethanol is "rechargable". If you get SERIOUS about the economics, ethanol can indeed be made and sold for a profit at today's gasoline prices. This tells me it makes economic sense.

Brazil has been doing it for many years.

The real problem with the current crop of "affordable" biofuels is the amount of land it takes. It will never replace a major portion of current fossil fuel use - the energy return and land use is simply way too high. It is likely to eventually replace fossil fuels where energy density is a must (think jets).

The "Do the Math" blog has a great post on this: The Biofuel Grind | Do the Math

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Batteries are chemistry, and burning gasoline in an IC engine is chemistry. So is there IN PRINCIPLE any reason a "battery" couldn't store as much energy in some reversible reaction as could be stored in an equal weight of gasoline?

Yes, this "battery" you describe would be called a fuel cell. These are also likely to replace fossil fuels for energy intense applications (long haul trucking is a good example) but will likely still include some amount of traditional batteries or super-capacitors as current fuel cells do not like to change power output rapidly.