First PHEV Honda Insight (1st gen.) with Enginer.us system

[Artric]

Originally Posted by ericbecky

In the current set up there isn't really a true EV mode. Basically if I'm using the electric motor the gas engine is always idling. I haven't taken time to confirm that there is a way to go with a fuel pump cut switch. Not sure if that would harm anything?

If your foot is not on the throttle, and the car is in gear and moving, no fuel is being used, but you'd need MIMA to activate the electric motor. It's only idling if it's not in gear. You can also use Forced Auto Stop, but I don't think you can use MIMA then.

[RobertSmalls]

Eric, I've got a relay that I installed next to my ECU that cuts all three fuel injectors, reducing fuel consumption to zero. Mine's wired to a momentary switch. Wire yours to a toggle switch and combine with MIMA, and you have EV mode. However, you can't stop the crankshaft from rotating, so you wouldn't save any engine friction. It would still be fun to take short trips on zero gas.

One thing I've wondered about lately: can the Insight's IMA motor and inverter stay cool when you're doing full assist continuously? Well, I guess you or Mr. Perkins would be the ones in the know. Had any issues at all with it?

I believe that by energizing fuse #24, you can power up the HV contactor, MCM, and BCM with the key in the "off" position. If you add that to your plug-in routine, you could add another 6.5Ah from the traction battery. You could also power up DC/DC converter pin 1 to charge your 12V battery for another 3Ah-equivalent.

Hi, Arctic! I envy your patience and hypermiling skill. Do you P&G around town? With a few mods, I hope you can get up to 120mpg.

[Artric]

Hey Robert!

I don't actually pulse & glide... at least not how I understand it. I try to accelerate to the speed limit or a little below it as efficiently as possible, then give the minimum to maintain or very slowly lose speed. When I get to a speed that's just too slow, I'll give it gas in 5th and lift up to get to 60MPG with a light assist to bring me back up to the desired speed.

On a hot day, this means I'm cruising at 120MPG or more for most of the trip! I can cruise along on back roads in my city at well over that, up around 150MPG at around a 30MPH rate. Of course, stop lights are then the bane of my existence, as they will wipe away any gains quickly... so it's very important for me to look far into the distance and never come to a complete stop. At minimum, I try to maintain enough speed in autostop so I never have to get into first gear.

Yesterday, I actually scored 111.3MPG on my 75% highway trip home! I actually lost a lot in traffic getting onto the highway, so I could have possibly gotten closer to 115 or 120 otherwise.

The key on the highway is to NOT accelerate uphill, instead to just suck it up, drop below 50MPH and use your hazards when appropriate. You also can't care about the people behind you, and it helps to make fun of them when they pass if they are being ultra-douchebags (like the guy on the cell phone with one hand, and waving his other hand at me instead of holding the steering wheel).

I find more often than not that I get "followers" who for one reason or another who want to go that slow. Yesterday, a guy was eating some fast food and seemed totally fine going this slow. Others are old people who want to join the caravan, and some actually just might want to save gas!

I'm planning a 190ish mile trip tomorrow. If I play my cards right, 120MPG should be no sweat. The problem is... holding all of that up for 3-4 hours! I wonder if I could get 100MPG on cruise...?

[Artric]

Any updates on MPG here?

I'm over 1,000 miles on my tank at 113.9MPG now with MIMA and the stock pack (with grid charging), so I know you should be able to pull some impressive numbers.

GL!

[bobmutch]

@Artric can you post a pic of you 1000 miles plus and your 113.9mpg. Are you using other mods than the Grid Charger?

[Artric]

Hi Bob,

I was also using the MIMA system to allow me to tell the car to not waste gas by charging the battery and to more efficiently use the charge (to allow me to stay at 100MPG by assisting with the battery to go up hills).

I was able to make it to 1200 miles on that tank, but that was very extreme - charging as much as possible, driving extremely slow at times, doing some things that certain people might consider dangerous...


OCD MPG by Artric, on Flickr

I still have the stock battery pack, and since I no longer have my 25 mile commute, I've been working on using the battery power to its full potential for shorter trips. The other day, I was able to just barely max out the MPG meter at 150MPG over almost 14 miles. But this was a round trip, starting with a pretty much full battery, charging at my friend's house (though only a little less than half of the battery capacity), and arriving home with a mostly-depleted battery.

I was sticking up around 125-130MPG on this tank, until my girlfriend got mad at me, took my car and ruined my MPG last night. WOMEN! It's probably a good thing though - I don't want to get caught in that trap, as I'm trying to kill OCD (which can make achieving these higher numbers more likely, but also potentially can add a lot of stress). The tank's potential will likely be killed with a long trip for Christmas, unless I get lucky and don't have to drive in the dark either way (I've been able to get 110+ with cruise control in the sun).

That prior tank remains my best, though this current one could give it a run for it's money. The in-town trips can give amazing numbers, but are obviously going to take more electricity to achieve. I'm only now starting to measure the kWh that I'm using. I'm actually only measuring the kWh that I'm paying for, so if I go to fix someone's computer, or help them run some cables, etc, the 11 cents it costs to fill my battery is a part of their charge!

So I've found that it takes a little over a kWh to reach 100% on the BCM display. I really love this, as it's helped tremendously to allow me to use my battery in the most efficient way possible. Also, by powering it up along with the BCM, I'm able to see the charge recognized immediately, and not have to waste gas every day on battery recalibration (I wonder how many more miles I could have gotten on the above tank with this?) This isn't a great picture, but gives you an idea of what info it gives me.


BCM Gauge at Work by Artric, on Flickr

To learn more about it, you can read this thread on InsightCentral. I MOST HIGHLY recommend this item!

To answer your question, no other MPG-saving mods. I was using a radiator block for a bit, but in the hot FL weather at the time, I don't think it made a difference. I also keep my tires pumped up very high - around 50+PSI then, and around 60PSI now, if my gauges are accurate.

RobertSmalls actually asked me to post about my charger over here. I've really been meaning to do so, and want to say I have no excuse not to, as I'm currently unemployed, but I've been crazy busy trying to knock things off of my to-do list. Once I get through my emails, I hope to get that done!

Art

[bobmutch]

@Artric
I got 70mpg on a 30km route the other day but my current tank average is 52.4mpg. I am doing all the things you talk about doing but that is all I get.

I do have an engine light on and am getting that checked out. I don't have stock tires but I keep them at 45psi.

I ordered the MIMA and am considering getting a 4kW battery pack but i would like to get the car to do what you good hyper milers are getting before I start adding mods.

I am looking at the following mods.

2000 Honda Insight MT5.

1) Manual Interconnected Motor Assist - MIMA, 2) Forced Auto Stop - FAS, 3) Grill Air Flow Changes, 4) Air Intake Heating 5) Fuel/Air Guage, 6) Water Injection, 7) Dry HHO electyric system, 8) Grid Charger, 9) Addition Battery Pack.

[bobmutch]

@Artric
How does the BCM guage help the most. I would like to have a fuel/air ratio gauge so I can see where I am ate concerning lean burn, to see what does and doesn't kick you out of lean burn.

[Artric]

I think what I really need to do is to make some videos that show the length that I go to to get my ridiculously high numbers. As to not make them too boring, I can "fast-forward" through the uneventful stuff.

Believe me, my drives can be quite boring, but I like it that way. It's a great time for me to relax, listen to some music, etc.

I'm not sure that most people recognize that, like in Auto-X, the biggest component is the Driver. Most of the things that you mention will help, but their small pieces that support the driver keeping the car in lean burn mode as long as possible. However, I was able to get over 100MPG before any significant mods, but a lot of willpower and annoyed people behind me.

Mods definitely allow you to get respectable mileage at a more acceptable speed. I do believe the most significant gain you're going to see from mods would be the combination of MIMA (to allow you to stay in lean burn when it would otherwise be impossible, and access the power of the battery without having to drop to 60MPG or less, as well as to disable the parasitic background charging), a grid charger (allowing you to start off with a full battery and to "refuel" it in a way that doesn't suck the life out of your gas tank) and FAS (letting you coast without fuel or drag from the engine at any speed, such as for a half a mile before leaving an interstate, and not requiring you to lose speed by tapping the brakes to try and incur auto-stop.

Of course, extra battery power will help you out, but to make the most of it, you should learn how to drive as efficiently as you can while still meeting your "must haves" (minimum cruising speed, etc). If I went to 4-5x the usable charge of what I have now, this would basically multiply the distance that I could drive in "near-full-electric" mode (using only a tad bit of throttle and treating the joystick as if it were the gas pedal), as well as lengthen the distances that I could get amazing numbers on. For instance, I could get 130MPG coming home from my old job (25 miles home), but if I wasn't able to charge there, the 50 mile trip could easily be a battle for 100MPG or less.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't learn the tricks to get the most out of gas savings with your current battery, then you will still be operating at that "battery usage efficiency level" but with more power - essentially wasting the same percentage of power as with the original battery, but at a higher rate due to capacity. I hope this makes sense. By "battery usage efficiency level" I mean the battery being used in the most appropriate situations where there is the biggest opportunity to replace torque provided by the little ICE at higher throttle with the instant-on torque of the electric motor. That scale would be quite subjective, but a 10 would be essentially perfect usage, while a lower number would be using the electric motor as a primary propulsion device.

We do have to remember that electricity costs money too. Just because you used little to no gas on a short trip doesn't necessarily mean that one isn't wasteful. If you have the stock battery plus a battery that gives an extra 4x the capacity and use it all up frivolously on a short trip, you could possibly be wasting more than just trying to do well with the gasoline engine only.

Let's take my trip to the post office and back at about 5.5 miles. If I use a whole battery pack, it's going to cost me about $.12 or $.022 per mile. But even hitting 150MPG (some gas will be used), that will cost me about $.106 or $.019 per mile. Add those together, and you get around $.23 cost for the trip or $.04 per mile.

But then, let's look at frivolous battery usage of 4kWh for the trip. That'd be $.48 for the trip in electricity alone, assuming not a drop of gas was used. However, that would be a lot of energy to use at that distance, but even half would equate to the same as the scenario above.

But there's even more to the equation... you have to figure out how much each cycle of the battery is costing you. Although you are saving gas, you likely had to spend thousands of dollars for those batteries. I've caught Enginer trying to calculate the ROI of their battery kits with charging twice per day over a number of years... while it clearly states in their documentation that it would add up to more cycles than they expect for you to get from the batteries. In short, expensive kits will generally not pay themselves off if you're already driving pretty efficiently (it's all simple math, try plugging in some numbers with what you get now and what you'd expect to get with a kit). There's also the guarantee of losing some efficiency with the extra weight, and the loss of space (that can either be a deal-breaker with the already low amount of space, or not matter at all).

Another thing to think about is wasting potential power on that type of trip, which could be used to rectify a much more fuel-inefficient situation. Batteries take hours to charge, and if you arrive home with a dead pack, that can mean that an unexpected trip turns your day's MPG average from stellar to barely acceptable.

Back on costs though, let's make sure we put things in perspective for a regular Insight trip sans grid charging. Short trips are hard, but I'd expect to be able to get 80MPG out of that without trying too too hard (but still trying). That'd be about $.20 for the trip. Wait... that's the cheapest so far! What's with that? Well, wasting full charges on short trips really isn't all that efficient. If I make at least one point with all of this - at least that can be one. Again, it's all about extending that electric charge and using it at the most efficient parts (and making sure it's not already been used up when you really need it).

So 80MPG might be what I can get, but what about Mr Average Joe (but still MPG conscious) insight driver? Let's say he tries and can get 60MPG. That's nothing to write home about, but it only costed him about $.26 - less than a penny per mile more than my original "extreme" scenario.

Really, in the end, the extremely high numbers are for bragging. They save money, but in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty minor. The effort put forth to do so could have very likely been more profitable if money is important. But it's a damn good hobby in my book.

To make that point, let's look at a 12,000 mile year. Going from a 20MPG guzzler ($1740) to a fair 30MPG car ($1160), is a nice big jump, but to receive about the same savings from there, you have to get an Insight and drive it decently at 60MPG ($580). Then let's look at someone like me who might get an average of 90MPG ($386). Wow... that $194 drop isn't so huge, is it? Don't forget that with a 90MPG average, they're probably grid charging with at least 1kWh per day, let's subtract about $44, bringing us down to a true savings of $150. In fact, put that in perspective of buying new tires when your current set isn't worn out, or purchasing MIMA and FAS at $800.

MIMA can (and in my case will) pay itself off, assuming that I'm attributing a generous MPG gain solely to the system. But it will take some time. I calculated at least 100k miles (though I plan to go there and then some). However, a battery pack that could jump me from 90MPG to a consistent 115MPG would only save an additional $35, before electricity is factored in. That means that it could actually cost more in fuel (gas + electricity). That kit is never going to pay itself off!

However, it's one hell of a hobby, and if you're very eco-conscious, you can add a gold star or two to your hat for getting the 100MPG+ numbers. It's also nice to squeeze out an extra 200 or so miles or extend your fill ups for a few weeks when you're on unemployment (or fighting your company to get even that).

Anyway, to sum things up, the ridiculously high numbers are a fun hobby, but if you make a decent wage, the savings are less significant than the amount of worry put into getting them. As a world, it makes far more sense to get rid of the really low MPG junk boxes, like getting your wife out of her SUV and in a Prius, or encouraging your neighbors to do the same.

If you are about saving money, then keep the stock battery (although over time a cheap parallel pack might pay itself off) and learn how to put it best to use. Also grid charge, and either keep charge high enough to not require background charge, use MIMA to disable it or a clutch switch. I'd invest in a long extension cable, look for open outlets wherever you go, and convince friends to let you plug in at their places. I call this "punk-charging".

Must actually get things done today, so my rant is long enough... cheers!

I really wish there were more Insight peeps around to "play with". I'd love to test cars against mine to see if there are certain mechanical things that might be holding the driver back, or if they just need to ride along and learn (or compromise on MPG performance if they're not willing to be 100% devoted, which is totally respectable, as it can take valuable time - although that time can be spent on the phone with loved ones, listening to audio books or just relaxing).

[RobertSmalls]

I pretty much agree with Art. If you're already in a very efficient car like the Insight, you're really not going to save more money with mods than you spend on them (with the possible exception of FAS and a grille block), but it sure is fun. Nor will you save enough money with cruising speed reduction to justify the time spent... but if you need to get 90mpg, then you need cruising speed reduction.