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Old 08-08-2010, 01:38 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tumnasgt View Post
On the other hand, huge amounts of resources go into building a hybrid...
That's an outright lie, a descendant of the "Hummer is greener than a Prius" propaganda effort.

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Old 08-08-2010, 01:41 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
And I think a very key problem for hybrids is that the drivetrain is not suitable for smaller cars like superminis (think Geo Metro sized) which Europeans love.
Oh, really? Seems to work just fine in the 1st gen Insight, and there aren't many smaller/lighter cars on the market.
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Old 08-08-2010, 03:17 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Oh, really? Seems to work just fine in the 1st gen Insight, and there aren't many smaller/lighter cars on the market.
Yep really. The Gen 1 insight was only a 2 seater. Most Euro hatches carry 4-5 people and luggage, or 2 people and a load of 'stuff' quite easily. The insight only had the latter option.

Look at Rob's VW Polo build thread for pics of his supermini or google cars like the Peugeot 207 or VW Polo. All have 4/5 seats and a boot. Smaller ones like the Citroen C1/C2 sometimes have moveable back seats so you can have leg room or luggage room.

EDIT - You also have to remember that most European families only have (or had until recently) one car - very few would have the US stylee one car, one truck for towing etc etc.

When I was little ALL of our family motoring needs (2 adults, 1 child, 1 dog) were catered for in a 10ft long Mini.
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Last edited by Arragonis; 08-08-2010 at 03:19 PM.. Reason: Bring me sunshine, all the while...
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Old 08-08-2010, 03:21 PM   #34 (permalink)
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PS - Having tapped that of course Toyota now sell the Hybridised Auris which is a hatchback but it is larger than the cars I mean - its really a Focus / Astra sized car.
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Old 08-08-2010, 04:43 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
That's an outright lie, a descendant of the "Hummer is greener than a Prius" propaganda effort.
It's a fact that more resources go into making a hybrid than a standard car, how much more they use is hard to tell because no one has done a proper study.
I am surprised that Toyota hasn't funded research to counter the Hummer rubbish considering how much damage it did (I don't know about other countries, but here it got a lot of coverage, and a lot of people now think their V8 SUVs are better for the environment).
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Old 08-08-2010, 06:01 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Saw a 2006 Prius on the local craigs list today. Under 25k miles, excellent condition.

$13500.

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Mech
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Old 08-09-2010, 12:36 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
Yep really. The Gen 1 insight was only a 2 seater. Most Euro hatches carry 4-5 people and luggage, or 2 people and a load of 'stuff' quite easily. The insight only had the latter option.
And what's wrong with that? You (and the automakers) need to remember that there are a lot of people out here who don't have families - single people, couples without kids, or with kids who've grown up. Why should we be forced to carry around all that extra weight (and non-useful space) for the benefit of those who do?

And it would have been pretty easy to build a 2+2 version of the Insight.
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Old 08-09-2010, 12:40 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tumnasgt View Post
It's a fact that more resources go into making a hybrid than a standard car...
Depends on what you're defining as standard. If you mean an average or typical car, then a hybrid like the Prius or Insight actually uses fewer resources to build, because they're smaller/lighter than average. Compared to similar size/performance models, they do use a bit more - but not all that much, and the extra is easy to recycle.

But in no way can the extra resources needed to build a hybrid be described as "huge". Minor is a better word.
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Old 08-09-2010, 01:05 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Depends on what you're defining as standard. If you mean an average or typical car, then a hybrid like the Prius or Insight actually uses fewer resources to build, because they're smaller/lighter than average. Compared to similar size/performance models, they do use a bit more - but not all that much, and the extra is easy to recycle.

But in no way can the extra resources needed to build a hybrid be described as "huge". Minor is a better word.
Have you got a source for how much energy/resources are used to build a Prius vs a similar car (eg Corolla), or is it just your opinion? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just interested where the information is from. Anything that shows cars like the Prius to be better is good news.
Also, in most parts of the world, a Prius is about average, it's really only in the US that the Prius is much smaller than your average family car.
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Old 08-09-2010, 04:11 AM   #40 (permalink)
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And what's wrong with that? You (and the automakers) need to remember that there are a lot of people out here who don't have families - single people, couples without kids, or with kids who've grown up.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. My original point was that the hybrid tech (batteries, motors etc.) doesn't suit the small European style hatchbacks because of the space taken and the weight.

Your response was to compare the 1st Gen Insight to them which I don't think is valid as hatchbacks are aimed at families as well as folks with no kids - young or old.

To be honest I don't think Honda believed the Insight is comparable either as at the same time as the Insight they were (attempting to) sell the Honda Logo in Europe (which I think has the same 1.0L ICE as the Insight).

EDIT - No it didn't - the Logo had a 1.3.



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Why should we be forced to carry around all that extra weight (and non-useful space) for the benefit of those who do?
No idea - I'm with you on this one. I would consider one. Ask Honda I suppose as they have abandoned the idea. The CR-Z has 4 seats, 2 of which are a PITA to get into, but they are still there. Of course you can remove them if you want, a lot of hatchbacks include the ability to easily completely remove the rear seats.

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Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
And it would have been pretty easy to build a 2+2 version of the Insight.
But they didn't and haven't. And the 2nd Gen one with 4 seats is cramped and has less luggage space compared to the competitors I already listed and Honda's own Civic hatchback which is different from the one sold in the US.

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Last edited by Arragonis; 08-09-2010 at 07:07 AM..
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