(granade pin pulled) Whats the point in the Prius?

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by robchalmers

what about the extra resources in and carbon produced be the extraction process of the battery ingredients and then shipment of them to the battery manufacturer etc ? are they included in these studies?

Good grief, you too?

Well if you listen to the hybrid skeptics, nickel is the most difficult, dirty, horrible substance known to man to extract. Not like the wonderfully clean, delicious, and taste oil that recently seasoned the Gulf of Mexico.

The only problem with this battery nonsense is nickel is also used to make steel and exhaust systems. Also cutlery, jet aircraft turbine alloys, surgical instruments and . . . specialty metals for engines. It turns out battery production is less than 1% of the nickel output and pales in comparison to the NiMH batteries sold in every grocery and drug store. But hybrid vehicle nickel that goes into a battery is 'special' . . . just more hybrid skeptic nonsense.

Bob Wilson

[robchalmers]

Thinking more about Lithium But I take your point.

I don't really classify my self as a sceptic, more as under-informed and this thread is helping to correct that.

so far:

In the US were the diesel infastructure rivals that of the hydrogen infastructure, people are turned-on to the Hybrid idea to pull back the FE and downsize from Buigger thrustier cars/trucks.

In Europe, Few hybrids make viable sense beyond fashion/eco statement or a tax dodge due to the cheapness/availability of diesel cars that can match or beat hybrids on CO2/Cost/FE

I'd also love to know the FE differences of a decent Diesel v's Hybrid away from lab conditions..... a few miles on the clock, 3 people on board, groceries/stuff in the trunk driving on something other than theoretical flat ground and driven by a 'normo'. It'd be a hard test to do fairly but could be interesting!

[Daox]

Originally Posted by robchalmers

I'd also love to know the FE differences of a decent Diesel v's Hybrid away from lab conditions..... a few miles on the clock, 3 people on board, groceries/stuff in the trunk driving on something other than theoretical flat ground and driven by a 'normo'. It'd be a hard test to do fairly but could be interesting!

Fueleconomy.gov has user input fields as to what mileage people actually get. There isn't hoards of info on it, but that would be a place to start. It believe Europe has something similar.

[Wonderboy]

There are also these new "Fuel logs" that people seem to be posting on www.ecomodder.com. That may be a good place to look for information on what kind of mileage hybrid v. diesel people get

[bwilson4web]

My apology . . . the Sudbury nickel mine reports continue to echo. I should not have been so snarky.

In the USA, we have a government run web site that allows individuals to post their mileage:

Fuel Economy (use the compare vehicle option)

Over the years, we've had diesel advocates report how they are compatible with or peers with hybrids. Certainly in the case of larger hybrids, the subcompact Jetta and Golf show somewhat similar mileage. But compared to the Honda Insight and Prius, the USA diesels are consistently lower mileage with substantially lower internal volume:

• 36.7 mph (23 vehicles) - 101 ft{3} passenger 11 ft{3} luggage - Camry hybrid
• 37.9 mph (27) - 101 ft{3} passenger 16 ft{3} luggage - Ford Fusion hybrid
• 40.3 MPG (29) - 91 ft{3} passenger, 16 ft{3} luggage - Jetta TDI, auto
• 40.9 mph (19) - 91 ft{3} passenger, 16 ft{3} luggage - Jetta TDI, manual
• 49.1 mpg {99) - 94 ft{3} passenger, 22 ft{3} luggage - Prius
• 49.8 mpg (14) - 85 ft{3} passenger 16 ft{3} luggage - Honda Insight

Mix of 2009 and 2010, USA vehicles

I fully understand the problem with 'lab' test results which is why I prefer the end-user mileage numbers. The pattern is fairly clear that larger vehicles tend to get worse mileage. But the diesel in typical USA owner hands are running over 20% worse yet the cost per gallon of diesel and gasoline is about the same. Notice how the Prius doesn't have the highest mileage but the interval volume is huge (for our fat American bodies and stuff we like to haul around.)

Now this may be more urban legend. I tend to see European driving as having less urban cycle, commuting and more extra-urban or highway driving. In the USA, we have a lot of commuting to and from work. As a general rule, I understand Europeans tend to drive ~9,000 miles (14,400 km/year) versus USA ~15,000 miles (24,000 km/year) each year. This would favor high-speeds in Europe where the hybrid advantage is reduced.

About a year and a half ago, a group called "green human" decided to 'race' from Portland Maine down the Atlantic coast and over to Portland Washington on the Pacific coast. This is almost all highway travel and winter, a time when hybrids are supposed to do poorly. They also used the 1.5L Prius but were surprised that the Prius got similar mileage to the Jetta TDI and even that model Prius had more interior space than the Jetta TDI.

Had 'green humans' chosen a different route that spent more time on higher speed highways, 75-80 mph (120-128 km/h) they could of increased the difference. Also, they didn't realize the hybrid 'cold' penalty (engineered out of the current Prius) occurs during the first 20 minutes of warm-up but their driving profile, long distance highway, erased that effect. <grins>

I tend to look at diesels and hybrids a bit like the stork and the fox. Each hosted the other to dinners that neither guest could enjoy. To some extent, that is what 'green humans' attempted and failed to achieve.

Bob Wilson

[dcb]

Bob, I don't quite get all the color commentary.
They penalized the jetta for being diesel
the jetta is a box by comparison
the jetta is a much larger engine

and still it came out ahead after thousands of miles 41.4 MPG vs 40.96 MPG

I don't really see you doing a fair/impartial comparison here. I don't know why I expected one either

What do you mean the cold penalty was "engineered out"? They completely eliminated entropy? Thats awesome

Problem w/setting the stage for using only US statistics is that we don't have many diesel options here, and I think you know that.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by dcb

. . .
and still it came out ahead after thousands of miles 41.4 MPG vs 40.96 MPG

You're referring to the "green human" Portland-to-Portland test. It is a useful tale, along the same lines as the dinner parties of the stork and the fox. It illustrates a flawed attempt to show a Prius as being no better than a Jetta TDI. Flawed because we're looking at:

(41.4-40.96)/41.4 = 1.1% difference (41.4 Jetta mileage)
40.96 MPG ~= 75 mph in a 1.5L Prius

So to achieve this low of mileage in the Prius, they had to exceed the posted 70 mph speed limit of the East Coast states. Granted, many do but it shows the extent they went to bias the 'test' for the Jetta TDI. Yet still, a 1.1% difference?

Ok, let's say they asked someone with Prius measured data to design a Jetta TDI biased 'test.' Here is how it would work:
File:US speed limits.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• Use a 1.5L Prius, not the 1.8L ZVW30 - opps, too late.
• Choose a cold winter - opps, too late.
• Take the Prius to a dealer or quickie lub shop known for overfilling engine oil.
• Maine to West Virgina via mountainous interstates - leave 65 mph speed limit states and reach 70 mph posted speed state as soon as possible.
• Take the interstates up and down the mountains and hills - force the 1.5L Prius into maximum power modes so fuel enrichment is used during the climb.
• Mountains - the traction battery power can be exhausted by high-speed climbs gaining 500-1,000 feet or more.
• From West Virginia, cut over to Oklahoma and 75 mph speed limit interstates - take the mountainous and hill routes in all cases.
• Oklahoma and the plains - drive the winds. Take a day off on tail winds or drive at night to avoid tail winds. The "Green Human" agenda needs to force the 1.5L NHW11 Prius into high power, fuel enriched modes thus high speeds into head winds and hill climbs are the trick.
• Head to SouthWest Texas - 80 mph speed limits
• From Texas to Idaho - take the mountain routes from New Mexico to Idaho at the 75 mph speed limit, especially on the climbs.
• Cross Washington state taking the mountainous interstates.

Ok, let's do the same trip in a Prius friendly way:

• Google Map with "avoid highway" option - slower speeds and stop and go traffic are Prius friendly, very friendly.
• Climb every tall hill at 55 mph - keeps the ICE in fuel efficient mode.
• Visit Minneapolis Minnesota and Great Falls Montana - relatively flat route.
• Visit just about every City Hall along the route - a lot of urban driving and scenic views.

So this Prius friendly 'race' will be just as unfair to the Jetta TDI as the "Green Human" 'race' which attempted to distort towards the Jetta TDI. Except for one thing, it isn't necessary to perform either experiment. Prius and Jetta owners are already reporting 'real world' mileage. For example, let's take the 2009 numbers for both the 1.5L Prius and Jetta TDI:

• 51.3 MPG - 22 vehicles, Prius automatic
• 40.3 MPG - 29 vehicles, Jetta TDI automatic

This is about a 20% difference in real world driving for the Prius. So on one side, we have "Green Humans" and on the other 22 Prius and 29 Jetta TDI owners. The "Green Humans" apparently don't mind that their 'test' may trick a buyer into spending $25,000 on the least, fuel efficient vehicle.

Originally Posted by dcb

. . . I don't really see you doing a fair/impartial comparison here. I don't know why I expected one either

I'm reminded of the old saying that the facts and data don't care. So looking at a 1.1% error, this is easily within the margin of error since neither vehicle was equipped with a '5th wheel' for distance nor an accurate flow meter for fuel consumed. We can assume the fuel pumps were accurate although obviously one used gasoline into a bladder lined tank notorious for causing misleading tank values and the other diesel into an ordinary tank. The real problem has to do with measuring the distance accurately since a 1% error is well within tire wear.

Originally Posted by dcb

. . . What do you mean the cold penalty was "engineered out"? . . .

The ZVW30 Prius has an exhaust driven, coolant heater instead of the thermos tank in the NHW20. What this means is as soon as the engine fires up, it is accelerating block heating. It is the next best thing to a block heater. It also has the advanced warm-up cycle of the NHW20 so as soon as the coolant reaches 40C, it will auto-stop the ICE at a light.

The ZVW30 also has two other tricks: cooled exhaust for high power settings and higher energy capacity traction battery. What this means is the ZVW30 uses cooled, exhaust gas to limit maximum exhaust temperature so fuel enrichment is not needed at maximum power. The higher capacity traction battery also improves energy capture and available hill climb power.

These design changes in the 1.8L, ZVW30, defeats the high power demands associated with cold, dense air. So the tricks the "Green Humans" used won't work again, ever. But their 'claims' live on:
http://www.greenhuman.net/

One thing, I forgot to quote directly from their web site:

Originally Posted by green_human

. . .
For those of you solely fixated on stats, the MPG part of this was that the CBTDI Jetta acheived an average of 41.4 MPG against the Prius 40.96 MPG (corrected).
. . .
The journey inherently contained a lot of highway mileage - we typically drove at or over the speed limit (like real people do) and while we did switch drivers on a fair and regular interval - we drove both cars with a heavy foot.
. . .

Huh, "(corrected)" because? How? Well at least they were honest that they were trying to put the 1.5L Prius in high power settings to force an MPG equivalent to the Jetta TDI . . . no matter how unrealistic it might be.

Originally Posted by dcb

. . . Problem w/setting the stage for using only US statistics is that we don't have many diesel options here.

I know but I've yet to find an European version of our EPA mileage page.

Bob Wilson

ps. Thread title "grenade pin pulled" suggests a desire for a reality 'clue by four.'

[dcb]

but it has nothing to do with the price of eggs, you brought up a test that you say is not even a valid comparison, why? Its baggage, a quagmire of no value, get to the point.

[dcb]

Also can we retract the "'cold' penalty (engineered out of the current Prius) " and say that they have made improvements, but not eliminated losses associated w/heat cycling. It is not at all accurate to say they have "engineered it out", like turning out a lightbulb.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

CNW Marketing generated a widely discredited report due to some severe errors in expected vehicle life-time.

The consistent flaw in the CNW Marketing report was...

Let me make an important linguistic point here: There were no "errors" or "flaws" in that CNW Marketing report. Describing the statements made as such implies that the authors were trying to do an honest job, but made mistakes. No, the proper term for everything in that report is "deliberate lie".