Have a couple questions about potentially switching cars to a hybrid and if it's worth it

[freebeard]

Reliability is another form of range anxiety?

[Bm93]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Reliability is another form of range anxiety?

I guess I'm missing the forest for the trees. In the end, if it's so close I have to use a calculator to get a specific answer then it doesn't matter in the long run.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Bm93

I was having a look at the cost of EV car batteries, and they cost as much as I paid for my car, which makes it seem more expensive than it is I guess, but I was trying to find if theres a calculator to calculate potentisl battery degredation based on frequency and length of use plus time to get an idea of when it'd need to be replaced and how long I'd be willing to go over the average battery life with fewer mileage.

You're right to wonder about these things, but unfortunately the oldest of the "modern" EVs is only about 12 years. The Leaf didn't have active thermal management, and as such, suffered rapid battery degradation.

Vehicles with active thermal management so far have had very modest degradation, but the oldest of those are only about 8 years or so.

Some forums have users that have plotted battery degradation through individuals that self-report. Tesla forums have the most data since they have the most cars and forum members.

Lithium ion battery construction and chemistry varies, so there will be variation in degradation and longevity, perhaps even within the same model of vehicle as manufacturers will change things within the same generation of vehicle. For instance, the Spark went from LiFePO4 to another lithium ion chemistry in just 1 model year.

We won't know how long batteries last until it's been 20 years. My wild speculation based on nothing except observing degradation between various EVs is that modern ones with active thermal management are likely to give very usable range for 15 years.

In the US, the batteries get 10 year, 100,000 mile warranties, so the manufacturer is going to build them to comfortably exceed this minimum threshold.

... so in 15 years an EV might be nearly worthless, but then again that describes most any vehicle.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

... so in 15 years an EV might be nearly worthless, but then again that describes most any vehicle.

Of course it's one thing to have a vehicle that's nearly worthless in terms of price, but still runs with a little TLC. It's another to have a car that's worthless because without a $15,000 part it won't go anywhere, or at least not go farther than the edge of the neighborhood.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

I don know of any hybrids that aren't plug in hybrids that get 60mpg, I think the best you are going to do is around 50mpg and I'm not sure if you mean highway driving or not.
I don't know of any hybrids with a manual transmission unless you're looking at turbodiesels.
Less distance and lower speed will definitely be more efficient.
If you're oy looking at like 4 mile trips why not get an electric beater car?

It's worth noting that 60mpg UK is 50mpg US. UK fuel prices are much higher than US fuel prices.

The UK also gets a bunch of neat cars the US never got. For example:

Honda Jazz (Fit) hybrid could be optioned with a 6 speed manual. 62mpg US (74mpg UK) but I'm uncertain if this is apples to apples with US economy testing methods.

Honda CR-Z hybrid could be optioned with a 6 speed, and is optionally a 2+2 seater, unlike in the US where it's only a 2 seater.

Honda Vezel could be optioned as a hybrid with a manual transmission.

Suzuki Swift (most recent) can be optioned with hybrids and/or turbos with CVTs or 6 speeds, anywhere from 50mpg to 57mpg US (60-68mpg UK).

I owned a Honda Insight 1st gen 5 speed for a decade, and was able to average ~70mpg US (84mpg UK), with highway fuel economy approaching 100 (120).

There are a ton of German, French and Italian cars which I may not be aware of which may be available with manual hybrids.

Outside of the US, Toyota has sold hybrids (non-manual) as options for nearly every vehicle they sell, for nearly two decades. By the numbers, Toyota's hybrids have the least and cheapest maintenance. I don't find them exactly inspiring to drive, but it's hard to go wrong with a Toyota hybrid, in an apples-to-apples comparison.

~

My opinion, a plug-in hybrid can be the best of both worlds. Plug-ins can drive a number of miles on electricity only, but don't need to have a huge, expensive, heavy battery to get that 300+ mile range people want. Net result, you commute every day to work for pennies on cheap electricity but can still take a road trip without worrying about charging networks. The batteries are also far less expensive to replace. A Chevy Volt battery, good for 35 miles before falling back to the gasoline engine, is only $3,000usd to replace.


Overall, this question looks to be one that can be answered with some math - essentially, ((cost of new hybrid) - (sale price of existing car)) / ((yearly cost to drive current car) - (yearly cost to operate hybrid)) = years to break-even.

Factor in projected maintenance costs and you have your basic total cost of ownership. A Toyota hybrid which uses the old style nickel battery could expect to need a $1500usd battery every 150,000 miles or so. The newer lithium batteries haven't yet failed in significant numbers, but they're looking to last longer and cost no more. With a Volt, you have a battery that's 2-3x the cost, but rather than cutting your operating costs in half, you're cutting it 80-90%.

~

The Volt is a compelling package. Hyundai's Ioniq (same drivetrain as Kia Niro) is also compelling, available as hybrid, PHEV or EV and is a far more efficient vehicle. It's good for 50ish miles on electricity, and once it falls back to gasoline, it's around 33% better on fuel than a Volt. Honda sold the Clarity as a PHEV in the US, and the Accord is available as a PHEV in most other places. There's also the Prius 3rd gen PHEV, Prius Prime 4th gen, and Prius Prime 5th gen. Toyota has plug-in hybridized several other models in non-US markets. Mitsubishi sells the Outlander as a PHEV. Chrysler sells the Pacifica.

~

Anecdotally, when I look around at what people are driving in NZ, which has even more expensive fuel than the UK, people are primarily driving subcompact hybrids. The math works out in favor here.

[Bm93]

Originally Posted by Ecky

My opinion, a plug-in hybrid can be the best of both worlds. Plug-ins can drive a number of miles on electricity only, but don't need to have a huge, expensive, heavy battery to get that 300+ mile range people want. Net result, you commute every day to work for pennies on cheap electricity but can still take a road trip without worrying about charging networks. The batteries are also far less expensive to replace. A Chevy Volt battery, good for 35 miles before falling back to the gasoline engine, is only $3,000usd to replace.


Overall, this question looks to be one that can be answered with some math - essentially, ((cost of new hybrid) - (sale price of existing car)) / ((yearly cost to drive current car) - (yearly cost to operate hybrid)) = years to break-even.

Factor in projected maintenance costs and you have your basic total cost of ownership. A Toyota hybrid which uses the old style nickel battery could expect to need a $1500usd battery every 150,000 miles or so. The newer lithium batteries haven't yet failed in significant numbers, but they're looking to last longer and cost no more. With a Volt, you have a battery that's 2-3x the cost, but rather than cutting your operating costs in half, you're cutting it 80-90%.

~

The Volt is a compelling package. Hyundai's Ioniq (same drivetrain as Kia Niro) is also compelling, available as hybrid, PHEV or EV and is a far more efficient vehicle. It's good for 50ish miles on electricity, and once it falls back to gasoline, it's around 33% better on fuel than a Volt. Honda sold the Clarity as a PHEV in the US, and the Accord is available as a PHEV in most other places. There's also the Prius 3rd gen PHEV, Prius Prime 4th gen, and Prius Prime 5th gen. Toyota has plug-in hybridized several other models in non-US markets. Mitsubishi sells the Outlander as a PHEV. Chrysler sells the Pacifica.

~

Anecdotally, when I look around at what people are driving in NZ, which has even more expensive fuel than the UK, people are primarily driving subcompact hybrids. The math works out in favor here.

Bearing all that in mind, one thing I didn't take into account was the fact that my place of employment has a electric charging cable for staff to use. If I was to use that, I'd be able to have free electricity for most of the week and maybe not even need it over the weekend depending on how much I drive it.

I will take a look at your comments in more detail when I get home as that seems very promising

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Bm93

Side question, I see a lot of used Prius' going relatively cheap as imports from Japan. Is it a gamble getting one of those because the numbers always look good, but I heard they get them from not the best conditions.

The Prius is a rock-solid car. I've had two 2nd generation (2005 and 2009). Both averaged 45 mpg (US) in mixed driving and needed almost nothing but routine maintenance. I had the 2005 for 12 years / 150K miles and the 2009 for 10 years / 115K miles. Both were replaced just because I was sick of driving a Prius and there were other options that looked more appealing.

My parents have a 3rd gen Prius (2010) with 185K miles. Most reliable car they have ever owned and still averaged 50 mpg (US).

Worst case if you need a battery they are $1000 - $2000 depending if you want remanufactured, aftermarket, or original OEM. There are also companies making kits to swap them to Li-Ion batteries.